Straight Talk with Mark Bouris

00:00 Les Kiss, welcome to Straight Talk, mate. Thanks, mate. I'm looking forward to this one for sure. Thanks for having me. 00:07 You're welcome. 00:08 Well, I mean, like, a lot of people don't know your story. That's where I want to start. Like, where does Les Kiss come from, like, initially? Like, where'd you grow up? We all know you played rugby league. We'll talk about that in a moment. But, like, who's the kid... 00:26 Yeah, it was basically a Bundy kid, really, Bundaberg. You know, that's where I started my rugby league. And, you know, things grew from that space. You know, someone like Tony Ray, I'm not sure if you know Tony Ray. I played with the old Sydney Bears. He had a lot to do with the London Broncos. His father was, you know, a fairly important figure of mine. He was a teacher at school. He got me going into rugby league and into a deeper way and helped promote my career and my career where I went in the future. 00:58 So I had a big influence from someone like John Ray. 01:00 It's funny, this was your teacher? Yes. Isn't it funny how teachers can have a massive impact on us? Massively. 01:07 So it can, to some extent, can mould us. 01:12 And to a large extent, as a coach, you're a little bit like a teacher, but we'll come back to that in a moment. But what impact did school and teaching have on you relative to who Les Kisses is today? 01:24 Yeah. You know, I wasn't overly academic, that's for sure. I was curious. I wasn't smart, all those things, but I was more interested in the sport side of things. 01:35 Contact sports or just contact? 01:37 All sports. I would have done, you know, Every event in athletics, I would have played soccer in the backyard or around lunchtime or played touch. 01:48 I never got to kick an Aussie Royals football around because it wasn't as huge back in those days. 01:53 Cricket was massive. If anything, I grew up wanting to be Dennis Lilley, of all things. You've got the moustache. Yeah, I just don't have that arm that just came down and put fear in guys. But, you know... 02:09 I think it's representative of a lot of us. You know, we're a country that's rich in many sports and we expose ourselves to many different sports. It's certainly in more recent times, you know, parents will channel their child into a certain area. But I still think we have that wonderful exposure visually, television, television. 02:28 in all forms that we, we get exposed to a lot of different sports. And I think it's, it's massively unique for us. Like if you're a Kiwi, you probably play cricket or rugby, nothing else. You know what I mean? In other countries, you probably play one or two. You know, we're exposed to so many different sports and I was no different, um, with my mates back then. And, uh, Yeah, school was important. I played school footy, first 13 rugby league and played for past Brothers Rugby League club in Bundy. And that was my trajectory into the big league in Brisbane. 02:59 So I don't know much about Bundaberg. 03:03 I've been there once, but when I hear about Bundaberg, I think of a sugar town. I think of sugar cane and sugar cane mills and all that sort of stuff. 03:12 Tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up in Bundaberg. What do you learn from places like that? I mean, here you are on the big stage, the coach of the Australian side. 03:21 In some respects, when you think about it, a kid from Bundaberg is now coaching the Wallabies and about to go into the World Cup in 2027. But that in itself must freak out a little bit. 03:32 Yeah, a lot of WTF moments for sure. Yeah. The missus will go, what the F, you know what I mean? Totally. Yeah, because this was not a plan at all. 03:43 But, you know, I think most of us who grew up in regional country areas in Australia have... You know, we aspire to be something through sport. 03:53 Is that right? Do you think so? 03:54 I think a lot of people did. And it's become broader, I guess. There's more educational opportunities for youngsters to grow through sport. Even from girls now and women in sport, they aspire to express through the sport. And the big cities is where it really happens. So you end up, you know, ending up... 04:13 finding a space if you're good enough, if you've got enough talent to go to the big smoke and try it out. And I ended up in Brisbane playing for Fortitude Valley. I got hunted by a guy called Peter McQuirter. He played Origin. He was the coach of Valley diehards in Brisbane. 04:32 and from there it just flourished. It just went ahead. 04:34 So you were a kid at school, 16, 17, and then he sort of, let's call it, recruited you? 04:40 Yeah, well, I got recruited to the local club first while you joined for the junior rugby there, but that's where my name became, you know... 04:48 on the lips of people in the big, in the big smoke. Um, there was a guy who played the valleys, uh, Tommy Duggan who opened a pub in Bundy, you know, it's the old Chinese whispers or the, uh, the Bush Telegraph. And suddenly, um, McQuirt is up there with me, um, running me around the place and says, come to, come to, come to Brisbane. And, uh, I had four offers then. I had an offer from Artie Beetson at the time. 05:12 He was at Redcliffe? 05:14 Yeah, yeah. Did he offer to come to the Roosters? Yeah, both. And then an offer from Brothers in Brisbane. But I was a fan of Valleys as a kid. That's the team I wanted to play for. It was the lowest offer. It wasn't big money back in those days, but it was the lowest offer. 05:31 And something in my gut said I had to do it. 05:35 And I always reflect on it. 05:37 It was a, you know, I think, yeah, the sum of your choices basically in life. And that choice was pretty important for me. I didn't go for the money. I went for something that mattered at the heart of everything. 05:48 What was that? What was that? 05:50 Because it's valleys, valley diehards. I sit on the hill at Lane Park and watch them play, you know what I mean? I wanted to put that jersey on, something. 05:57 What was the essence, though, sitting within the diehards that you thought, I want to be part of that ethic? Yeah. 06:04 Yeah, well, you see Alan Mills run around, Julio Doherty games, names you wouldn't remember now. Wally Lewis played there. It was just that royal blue jersey. 06:14 Something hit you. Something romantic? Yeah, I guess it has to be. There is something romantic about it for sure. 06:21 And... 06:22 When it came down to it, and I mentioned John Ray earlier, he had a big deal for me at Brisbane Brothers. And I remember having to go to a phone booth in the day you put your coin in. I rang John. I said, John, I'm going to disappoint you, mate. I can't play for Brothers. I have to go and pay for it. How old were you? 19 or something. 19? Yeah, 19, something like that. So there I am. Ended up at the club that I loved as a kid. And what I was... 06:49 trying to say is that it makes you really search into the reason why you make your decisions in life you know be sure that you're not going for the wrong reasons and I thought At the time, I didn't think like that. I just wanted to represent that. But valleys. And then when I think back on it, it was important. It sort of forged the way I thought about my decisions in the future. 07:10 I probably overthink it sometimes, but I make sure whatever decision I'm making, I research it pretty deeply. 07:17 But that one wasn't research. It was just a deep feeling of, yeah, I wanted to be a valley diehard. And to this day, I am. And I've still got my original jersey. 07:26 And that matters. It matters to me anyway. 07:29 So how did you end up in Queensland reps? 07:33 In rugby league, I'm talking about now. 07:35 Yeah, my rugby league rep was through from Butterburg into, you know, the regional areas, Wide Bay and that. 07:42 And just by chance, I'd just re-signed with Valley for two years and the Bears came hunting. 07:50 The North Sydney Bears, Bob Saunders, Chicken Norton, the coach at the time, they came to Brisbane at the end of that season to sign Gary Belcher. 07:59 They found out Gary was going with Mal and the boys to Canberra Raiders. 08:06 So my name popped up and he rang me and I said, look, I'm sorry, I've already signed. 08:11 And then he said, look, we'd like you to come. So I went and spoke to my coach, Peter McWhorter, and Peter said, you've got to go down there. 08:18 That's where I made my way to the State of Origin team, going to the bigger smoke, Sydney, playing for the North Sydney Bears. 08:25 And... 08:27 Yeah, things really accelerated in that 1986 year. It just went from good to better. 08:36 Was that the... Did you play Origin Queensland in 86? 86. Was that the year that... I know, maybe I'm getting confused. Now, I'm thinking about that and I'm thinking about another game, but... 08:45 No, wait a minute. No, no, no. Is there a brawl in that game? 08:48 No, no, there wasn't a brawl in that one. I think you're talking about maybe a year before or a year after because I wasn't in 87. I injured my knees and I was out for a couple of days. 08:55 Because I remember seeing a brawl only recently where I saw Max Krilic was involved in it. Yeah, that was before me then, yeah. That was before you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that was a... 09:09 Bugden was fighting Broadhurst or one of those sort of people. It was like unbelievable. We'd never get away with it today. 09:16 What did you learn from playing State of Origin about rugby league that you've taken into rugby union coaching I'm talking about? 09:22 Yeah, that's a good question. 09:26 You know, what you do in the past, what reservoir memories or experiences that you do have, things do come through. They do. Oh, for sure. You know yourself and what you learn in different ways, what you learn what to do and what you wouldn't do and who you listen to and who you don't. 09:44 Yeah, the big lesson there was, you know, this sounds really basic, but, you know, 09:55 When it comes down to it, when you're with your mates, your best mates, the Queensland psyche is so interesting in its own right. It's different. It is. But there's something that you play for something bigger than yourself. I always played the game for the joy and the love. I loved it. But there's something else that's bigger than you. 10:11 You weren't paying for the money you paid for playing State of Origin. 10:14 No, no. 10:15 You played for Queensland. I mean, it's a thing that Queensland, I'll be honest here, did have a mortgage on until about, I think Madge, I think Madge has brought that into New South Wales more recently, and then Laurie's carried it on. But you're right, Queensland, there's something in the Queensland psyche that for 20, 30 years, to playing for Queensland was just more important than anything. 10:39 Yeah, yeah. And I think in the early days, the only person... 10:43 And I'll be respectful here because, you know, the New South Wales Blues are brilliant players, a brilliant team. But I remember Mortimer lifting the trophy in 83, 84. That one period, there was something about him that took it to another level. Yeah. And when they get to that space, you know, it's hard to beat New South Wales. Yeah. 11:02 you know, the thing I felt was that you can actually find more in yourself and it's not just you and yourself, it's with your mate next to you and what you build with the guy either side of you. It's all about teamship and all those and we exist, those things exist in every team but there's something else that I learnt that you can actually extend what this means to you beyond the game itself, beyond the ball being passed left and right, beyond the tackle and we had some wonderful characters in that team, a great rugby league team and Yeah, that was special. 11:33 Who were some of the guys on that side? Gene Miles, Wally Lewis, you know what I mean? Not bad. Gary Belcher, you know what I mean? Horse up the front, Brian Niebling. It was a tough, uncompromising period of rugby league. Yeah. 11:49 Every era of the game is brilliant. But they're different. They're different. The difference in those days was sometimes it was brutal. You wouldn't accept some of the things that happened in the game back then now, but there was also another level of... 12:05 that still exists in the game in a different way, but different skill. The way that we expressed our skills was bloody beautiful. 12:14 Yeah, totally. Two things come out of what you just said about you coaching Australia. Relative to your experiences, the well of experiences you're going to draw on, is making the team play for Australia. They are playing for Australia, so you want more than just their basic skill base. 12:32 You want them to be better than what they can do every week, playing first grade or playing in Waratahs or whoever it happens to be. You want them to be all together playing for Australia. I want to hear about that, what you think about that and what you're going to do about that in relation to Australia, the team you're coaching now. But equally, how is a skill base... 12:51 need to be expressed differently today in rugby union, say, compared to previous periods. A bit like what's going on rugby league today. The skill base is expressed differently. 13:00 And therefore, to some extent, you're the coach. You have to know the skill base that we need. 13:06 bit like in rugby league and we have to go and find the individuals who can perform that school base based on their height their athleticism you know their experiences you know things you watch you know in a football player and uh that's that's where i want to go that's where i mean i think the audience would love to go there too and what does les kiss think about that but before i get i move off that um um what did you do post origin like what Where have you been? You know, like Leskis all of a sudden arrives on the stage following Schmidt as the Australian coach, but where have you been over the last 10, 15 years? 13:42 Yeah, where do I start in all honesty? 86 Kangaroo Tour, I got a serious knee injury. 13:51 I got it repaired, but I blew the knee again over literally, you know, five games back in. So I was out of the game for about 24 months there. 14:00 That period there, it was a soul-searching period, as all injuries are. 14:06 And I think that's where the germination of becoming a coach and seeing the game for a different lens rather than... 14:16 in the game, outside, worked with the coach closely. 14:20 I think that set me on a trajectory of curiosity about that side of the game, how you build a team and pull things together, that sense of something bigger than just yourself, how do we become the best us that we can be, all those things. But that threw me into coaching. So as I played on my career, I ended up in coaching. I coached Matthew Flegg, President's Cup, assisted first grade at the Bears. And suddenly I'm on this trajectory. I'm going to be coaching. And I've really done nothing else in my life rather than play footy and coach. 14:51 Oh, really? Yeah. And that's unique from that period. I did a bit of work for a sponsor, a poker machine company, as we all do. We jumped in and out of that. But most of my time was in coaching. And in my Bears coaching career, there was a time where, and I mentioned Tony Ray earlier, he was at the London Broncos. 15:12 So first stint overseas, I went and did London Broncos. I got called back to be part of the North Sydney Bears and Manly Amalgamation Northern Eagles. A good friend of mine who we coached against each other with Manly Juniors and Bears Juniors was Frank Panisi, a good mate of mine. And we were the assistant coaches at Peter Sharp. And after a year, I knew that this was just a Manly takeover anyway. And Frank helped me get a connection with Springbok Rugby. 15:38 Suddenly, I'm working with the Springboks on a six-week contract. And that became another 10-week contract. Then it became a two-year contract. So I learnt rugby through the eyes of the Springboks. 15:50 Would the Springboks, would a rugby union team like the Springboks drag you into their coaching environment because of the defensive prowess of a rugby league game? 16:00 Yeah, because John Muggleton, remember him, Phil Larder in British Rugby League, went to union. He was looking for, the head coach at the time was looking for some expertise in rugby league. 16:12 And when Frank... 16:17 introduced me to them. Frank stayed on and coached. He went on to the Springboks later, by the way, Frank. But I had this opportunity as I took it in the hands. And it was mainly about that, the skill sets of defense, but also things they didn't know about at the time of running lines, unders and overs, manipulating. They were very much about attrition. I'm bigger than you. 16:37 I'll run over you. Whereas the maneuver part of the game, which is a you know, in our DNA, the Aussie DNA is how do we work things out? How do we pull you apart and break down defense lines? They had never done any of that. So I was at the infancy of that. And then Tim Lane came in after me and took that on. So I had 13 test matches, no, 11 test matches with the Springboks. 16:58 And then I, um, uh, had the opportunity to come home and, um, You know him well, John Fordham. 17:08 I had a sit with him and I said, look, I'd like to look at some opportunities rugby here. And he put me in touch with Eddie Jones next day. 17:16 The following day I'm talking to Bob Dwyer and the following day I'm working with the Waratahs. Bob Dwyer, big greener bottle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ran with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So suddenly I'm immersed in this... 17:28 Waratah World Australian Rugby. Is Bob still around? 17:31 Yeah, he's still around. 17:32 Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. World Cup winning coach, legend. 17:36 So I actually had these experiences of spring rock rugby. It was an interesting experience learning. I think it's been a gift to me, really, to understand how they think and how they thought about it. 17:46 Well, how do they think? 17:47 Because, by the way, we're playing them next week. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. 17:50 How do they think? I mean, what is their psyche? Yeah. 17:53 That's different. An interesting aside, when I was coaching that team, Rassi Erasmus was right at the end of his career and he was part of that team I was coaching. And even then you could see that he was a guy who saw the game differently. 18:04 What period are we talking about now? 18:06 2000. 2000. Yeah, so we're back a while. 2000, 2001. 18:10 So that's post-Tion Strauss, I think. Probably a little bit after-Tion Strauss, about 10 years after. Yeah, yeah. 18:17 And... 18:19 But the nature of their game was built on attrition. They played what they call 10-man rugby. You know, eight forwards, nine and 10, kicked the ball in front, and you have to find a way to get out of that. Now, they still do that, but they have built a wonderful sense of being able to manoeuvre a game. They've got... 18:35 extremely skillful players right across the board now. So they are probably the deeper and most broad team about how you can play the game in many different ways. Now? Yeah, their set piece, their power, the way they wear you down. It's massive. So if you take them on, it's the old theory, if you take attrition on with attrition... 18:55 and you can't beat it, the difference is maneuver. How do you work your way around those? How do you find crevices here and there? How do you turn them mentally? Turn them around, make them try and find another way to survive. So manipulate them. Yeah, they're a difficult team to play. So that part of their game, I used... 19:14 as an asset when I was at the Waratahs because they like it. So if you chop them down early, get them to ground and change the way they like to rumble their game, you can actually get some joy against them. So I took some really good lessons from the Springboks, had a great learning experience with Bob Dwyer, Ewan McKenzie at the Waratahs. Over seven years there, we got to two finals. We just could not beat the Crusaders in that time. 19:41 But, you know, I had the chance to coach the Phil Wars, the Matt Burks, Justin Langer, Justin Harrison, Morgan Turinuri, those types of people in that era, David Lyonson, really, really class players from that era. Lottie Takiri, Wendell Saylor, Leagies, who I came across. So I had a wonderful introduction to Australian rugby as well before I was headhunted to go to Irish rugby. 20:07 Yeah. And then I spent 10 years up there and 16 months of that I helped coach the Ulster team and lived in Belfast. 20:16 From there, I moved across to the English Premiership. The owner of a club called London Irish asked me to come across and help them get relegated or promoted. And then I was there for six years before I came back three years ago. And so it's been a journey and a half. And in between, I went to Japan and did a couple of spot coaches as well. So I've been through a lot of different cultures in rugby. 20:36 The last three years, what have you been doing now? 20:39 Well, so London Irish, unfortunately, had to drop out of the league. The owner dropped out and didn't want to go any further. We couldn't get money, so we suddenly were out of the business. There was two jobs in the world, Edinburgh and the Reds, and thankfully the Reds took me up. And I came back and joined Queensland, which, again, reignited that Queensland spirit and sense of something special, putting that... 21:07 You know, I played in the Maroon Jersey, um, and, and now I've coached the Maroon Jersey, although it's in, in a different code. Um, that was, it's, that's been a special little, you know, loop back a journey for me for sure. And I, it was, it was good to be back there coaching Queensland for sure. 21:22 We've seen some rugby league, sorry, we've seen some rugby union people, um, come back to rugby league and coach rugby league. 21:29 And of course I've talked about Michael Checker in that regard. And he sat there right in that same chair as you are now. And, um, You would know this better than I do, but there's not that many rugby league guys who've got to the top of the rugby union world in terms of coaching. 21:49 Would that be right? 21:51 Yeah, it'd be fair. Not many. Not many. 21:54 What's the difference between the two? Yeah. 21:58 I mean, I know the game's different, obviously, but like coaching I'm talking about. 22:01 Well, I'm just thinking, you know, Sean Edwards, defensive coach for Wales and France more recently, not there anymore. But not number one coach. Andy Farrell. Andy Farrell's probably the other big one who's leading a country. 22:21 What's the difference between coaching the two? Is there an approach that's different? 22:25 Yeah. 22:26 It's a really good question. 22:27 Psychologically different to the players? 22:30 I think the players all have the same psyche. They are competitive. At the level we're talking about, you're built differently and you're made differently and you're raised differently and you actually adapt differently when you're at this level. As a player. As a player, for sure. 22:47 Coaching, psychologically... 22:51 In the mental space and the emotional space, I don't think there's a lot of difference. If anything... 23:00 maybe we have more Australian games. So the psyche of being an Aussie out there and battling away there is different to when you're in club rugby. It's still tribal. It still has the same sense of meaning and purpose in that sense. But technically and tactically, the games have vast differences. It's still a go-forward game. It's still about... Meters. Yeah, meters. Positioning the ball in the right place. 23:27 Game management decisions. 23:29 We have in Union variations of how the game can be manipulated and restarted through set-piece, kicks, unlimited tackle. All those things can have the variables that make it different tactically, for sure. I love the game of rugby. I've actually been blessed to be at the top of both. To appreciate both games at that level is... 23:56 It's cool. 23:57 But if you had to describe... If someone coming from another country never saw a game of either one, how would you describe to that person the difference between rugby league and rugby union? 24:09 It's a really good question. I don't know if I have a full answer for it. I'd say that the way that we advance... You're talking about rugby union now? The way that we advance opportunity, our strengths, is done more like a structured way. League, you are... 24:29 Advancing your strengths more through a flow way. You know, it's a continuous flow about how you put pressure on, how people respond to pressure, and then how you unleash the strengths in your game. You know, the hammers and the pongers and the clearies and how they then take that game apart and rip it apart. 24:49 So tactically, you're ripping a game apart through flow pressure and continuous pressure. In rugby, there's stop-start pressure and different ways you view different pressure points. And therein lies the elements of different sizes, more different sizes in the game because you need a lock-up here, you need a prop this wide, and opportunity comes from those different sizes. 25:11 The way I coach is to try to... 25:14 as much as possible, expose those bigger guys who aren't as mobile and create opportunity through wearing them down in different ways. And that could be through set piece, which is stop-start, but it can also be through possession. And I'm more of a possession coach. I love to use the ball a lot more. 25:30 What does that mean? You mean you like to pass the ball? 25:32 Yeah, I like to use the ball and we'll play multiple phases. But with that comes risk because the more you play in the game of rugby, you've got to find the right time to push the ball off the boot and put it where you need to. Whereas league, you have six, you kick. You have flow pressure. And that pressure builds in different ways. And these genius players in league, they suss it out and they sense it and they see the weakness and they strike. 25:56 Would you have... 25:57 It's interesting you just said it to me. Do you... 26:02 Do you have people like a Cleary who can unpick a game at a certain point in rugby union or is it more a team effort or is it a more structured team effort? 26:11 No, you definitely have individuals that can do that for sure. If I just take the world class... 26:17 person who does that. At the top of his game, the best number nine I've seen is Antoine de Pont is the number nine for France. 26:25 He's a player that can work tight with his forwards and manipulate and he can work with his backs in a really formative way that you don't know where he's going to strike. He's quite unique and the best number nine, probably the best player in the world really that influences the game in that way. 26:45 Definitely number 10s in a game. There's a lot of pressure in Australia in our number 10s to perform, but I do think it's a collaborative effort. But yes, their job with mainly, I reckon, in my book, 15s, the fullback, are picking the moments. And if you look at it, that's probably that spine you're looking through in rugby league. In rugby union is a spine that works and manipulates and tries to find that space that's created by A forward pack, very similar in a way, isn't it? Your forward creates space. They penetrate. 27:15 They collapse defenses. And then you need the guys that can see it, manipulate, and coordinate an attack that can attack it. 27:21 Does a number 15 play as big a role in rugby union as they do in league in terms of defense? In other words, you know, calling out. Yeah, massive. There's a hole here, move across. Yeah, they're massive. 27:32 And we tend to use in rugby two fullbacks. How do you mean? So... 27:39 He's our fullback, but in general, we usually... What's become a trend over the last 5, 10 years is the number 10 drops back. And they position themselves on 15-meter line and the front line work. Together. Yeah, and they work. And if there is a stress moment that they have to go to the front line on the edge... To fill a gap. Yep. That comes across and then the winger joins. Wow. And it's like this pendulum moment there. So the movements there are different. But if you only had one fullback... 28:07 We have a 50-22, is it in the league? No, 40-20. Yeah, 40-20. We have a 50-22, and they're getting quite good at being able to expose space and kick, and if you get the ball out, you get the line out down. Right. So it's not in your best interest not to have that coverage. 28:28 That helps you have 15 men on the ground too. Yeah, it helps. 28:31 That means we've got 13 in the front line. Yeah, yeah. And then at any ruck, Defensively, you've obviously got one or two, usually not more than two in the ruck, and then the rest have spread, and then you've got two fullbacks. 28:46 Because it strikes me that rugby union is much more technical than rugby league. It is, yeah. Not only just in terms of how the game's played, the strategy of the game, the flow of the game. But also the rules of the game, which I don't know what the referee is saying. Same here. I haven't got a clue. 29:05 It's a bit like the Six Again rugby league though. PVL won't like me saying this, but it'd be great if they could actually say what the Six Again is for, because I never know what it is. It's just Six Again, hand up, Six Again. 29:16 And I think actually consumers of footy, generally speaking, rugby union rugby league, get quite frustrated with not knowing what the reason is for a penalty or a handover. 29:25 In rugby union, does the, now you tell me there's a 15 and a 10, but would the 15 cover as much ground as a rugby league fullback? Because the rugby league fullback now is a smaller guy. He's not that big that his legs are getting worn out. He can run long kilometres. Yeah. 29:43 um, in every aspect, defense and attack. Is the rugby union guy fullback getting in the same category now? 29:50 Well, they're one of our highest meters, them and nook two wingers. Right. Definitely with the, um, the movements they have. But in attack, they're also, we don't play left and right. You know, in rugby league, you'd have a dead set left and right side played in. Yep. In rugby, we have left and right winger, but more recently in the way I play, those players from this side will move and attack this side and reassess and rearrange and then they come back into what I call the axis and then they attack the next base. So they do more of this. 30:21 So their meters come up in different ways in that end. The one thing we don't have is... 30:26 If you had six tackles in rugby league, you can make anywhere from 20 to 50 metres. 30:32 In rugby, if you had six tackles, most of the time you only make six metres. Six rucks. Yeah, six rucks, you might make six metres or 10 metres. Yeah. Unless you pick it apart and you make a line break or bend them back, and then that's when you get more metres. So our metres, I think, would be probably a little bit less, but our 15s would be anywhere around six or seven kilometres a game. 30:52 Right. 30:52 In that area, you'll, you know... 30:55 What is the thing that surprised you most about rugby compared to rugby league? Were there some things that really surprised you? 31:01 Yeah, the one thing when I was with the Springboks early on, it was about probably six to eight, maybe nine, ten weeks into it, this light came on, boom, and I went, I'm starting to get this going because it is different. It is quite different in terms of what happens at the tackle and where your advantage line is. 31:25 But the game is about contest. And when I played, I could rip the ball off anyone at any given time. Now you can't rip the ball. In rugby union? In rugby league when I played, I'd rip the ball. 31:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 31:35 You can't rip the ball out now if you're a one-on-one. 31:38 Yeah. So we took the contest out. Now contest now is sometimes it's an aerial battle and it's not really in the tackle anymore. Yeah. 31:46 Rugby union, every... 31:48 Now, the base of the game is every time the ball's in play, it's available to be contested. 31:54 By anybody. Yes. But there's two-on-one or one-on-one. 31:57 Two-on-one, all that. So securing your ball makes it a different game. And, you know, that's where you might have 15, but at a ruck, you need ball player, ball carrier plus two at least. Then you've taken three hours straight away. Then you've got a nine. So it's not like you've got always 15 running at the opposition defense. Space can be created... 32:18 by the way you manipulate where the defence work. But the major difference and the thing that came on and I said, I get this, and it was through, that's why I love watching Richie McCaw in the early days, the guy who is the main guy who contests for the ball. The ball is always available for you to contest within the laws, obviously. Yeah. 32:41 Is Les Kiss responsible for knocking off all the players out of the Roosters to play for the... Yeah. 32:47 Because you've had a fair shot at it, mate. Like, you know, you've got Suwali, you've got Crichton, and now you've got Mark Noongatinawazi. Hopefully you've got no one else that we don't know about. 32:58 Why us? Are you watching all our games or something? 33:00 No, no. Well, that happened all before I came in, mate. Oh, yeah, right. 33:03 But how important are rugby league players into the – like, let's say they're all in contention to play for Australia in the World Cup. How important are they? 33:14 Is there a reason that you picked them? 33:17 I think the rationale mainly was, you know, you're talking about players who are supreme athletes, but intelligent supreme athletes. 33:27 Footy intelligence, yeah. 33:28 Yeah, footy intelligence, massively. And, you know, obviously, Joseph was well before I came in, but I'm bloody happy he's with us, mind you. 33:39 What does someone like Joseph bring? 33:42 he brings a... 33:44 Path of athleticism. 33:45 Yeah, but it's how he uses it. He's got an acute awareness about how he can manipulate a defender one-on-one. If anything, we've just got to help him grow his understanding how he manipulates with his combination of his players around. 34:00 Yeah. 34:00 And manipulates in combinations. Yeah. So that's one area that can continue to grow. But he utilizes his skill set wonderfully and the way that he can manageable is unbelievable. 34:13 Do you change your style of playing to, not accommodate, but take advantage of his skills? 34:19 Definitely, yeah. You know, the way that we're building our game at the moment is making sure that I can put the Max Jorgensen's. Another great rugby player. Oh, sorry. 34:33 Oh, there you go. 34:34 No, he wasn't far off, by the way. 34:36 Yeah, I know. I know. We've managed to keep him. And... to put them into clean space a bit more and be able to manipulate that space and hopefully they get more clean air because once they're in the clear air, They're dynamic. 34:52 Yeah, especially if they get outside a man. 34:53 Yeah, and then they usually finish, and Max is one of the best finishers in the game. And then these boys are... The big thing I find with having Joseph, but that was well down the track, the other boys coming in, they put competitive pressure in play. You need pressure on all positions. You need to be deep... We're not super deep in our each position in the game from an international perspective. Like a spring box would be three, that'd be four deep in every position. 35:24 They could go to four. What does that mean? Well, a Their fourth tight head prop can probably operate very close to what their first tight head prop can. Their fourth nine. Player depth. Yeah. Player depth in each position is very deep. 35:39 Right. But you only get how many you get for the squad? 33. 33. Yeah. 35:44 So the Springboks could put out three teams and still beat nearly every other country in the world. Wow. Yeah. That's our... deep they built it through Rassi Erasmus and done a great job with that nation and how they built their whole playing model and roster. The Kiwis are pretty deep, that's for sure. The All Blacks, we're growing depth. 36:08 We need to keep continuing to grow it. 36:10 What is it that has stopped us from growing depth in rugby union similar to the box and the All Blacks? 36:17 One of the biggest challenges for us is And not many people would know this, but we're one of the biggest net exporters of players in the world. So we've got a lot of Australians playing overseas. 36:30 And sometimes we can't match the money that is offered. It's sometimes extraordinary what they can do. Really? Yeah. The difference, particularly at a younger age, it can be quite different. Particularly the French League, if they find a young... 36:46 strapping young big forward. They want to take over. They offer big money. What sort of money? Well, it's like league putting out money, but it's not been unheard of money between 80,000 to 120,000 euro for young men. 37:01 You just have to be in bucks annually. 37:02 Yeah, so they're getting good money if they want to go. It's not only that. There's only so many jerseys a country can offer at international level, and You know, if they feel like they're not at the races, it's an opportunity to go away and play elsewhere. But Australia is one of the biggest net exporters of players, talent around the world. Whereas the others aren't. Not as much, but the Springboks have a different model. They allow their players to play overseas heaps. They build their local content and then they come back in and they're building depth and depth and Rassi exposes them to test matches, which is a smart model that works for them. 37:43 For us, we want to make sure we keep as many good players and we want to probably, for the majority of the time, select players who stay in the country. But we do have access to players who do leave the country as well. 37:54 And is there a move, like a positive move, maybe under the leadership of Phil Warlake, but is there a positive move to adopt something more similar to the Springboks nursery-type process and building up these three deep, four deep in any one position? 38:16 We've got a plan in place that we're working on. 38:20 Is that your plan or is it the AIU's plan? Yeah. How does it work? 38:25 Yeah. Well, there's a contracting model and all that. 38:28 It's a couple of things. Most of the money comes from RAF that provides money to the provinces. Each province also generates some of their own income. But most of the financial power does come from the National Union. Yeah. But there's strategies within each of the provinces and academies, definitely. You know, I was part of the Queensland system over the last three years and we've been very proactive in terms of tapping into the talent base and providing the best coaching, the best pathways we can. 39:03 Each of the unions are doing that in different degrees. 39:06 Rugby Australia are supporting that, definitely, financially, as well as helping to align systems in the program. 39:15 In terms of building that local talent pool is important. 39:20 We only have four teams in the competition, so you can't keep all of them. That's why we do lose some overseas because we're a very good sporting nation. I mean, we're deep as sportsmen. If we didn't have league and Aussie rules, it would be a pretty formidable Europa Union team. Oh, it sure would. Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it? But we're still not battling. We still have a place to play at the top of the game in Europa Union, and that's where we want to go. So it's important we build those feeder systems and pathways. strengthen our provinces as much as we can. 39:51 By provinces, I mean Queensland Reds, and so that we can grow what competitions they play in as well, because the more games you play at the higher level, you build their capacity. And getting that deeper and deeper is so important. And then providing each of those states with the right coaching and that as well. 40:12 And hopefully... 40:14 over the next, this won't happen overnight, but over the next, you know, two to five, six years, we can build three deep in each position, three and a half, four, you know what I mean? And that's where we'd like to get to, for sure. 40:26 Yeah, but do you, does Les Kiss maintain relationships with... 40:30 you know, the coach of the Reds, you know, the Brumbies, you know, Czech, Michael Checker, like, do you maintain relationships and say, listen, is that Blake there you got? 40:41 I got mine in for, you know, for the future. Do you have those sort of conversations? 40:44 Certainly. So we'd have a national depth chart. 40:48 that we'd be looking at all players for different systems. We have a process in place where we have 50 players on a national watch list and we talk to the coaches in each of the states about who's... At the province level or at the club level? 50 from the states, yes, the provincial level. And they're on a watch list and, you know, someone like... 41:09 You know, a Max is in that group and someone like a Fraser McWright's in that group, you know, Jeremy Williams from the force. So there's the top level players are all in this area. And then it's about that next level being able to make sure that they're resourced in a good way that we improve that talent base and get those young kids coming through and performing. 41:27 So yeah, we're proactive with the States. 41:29 But would you say to the coach of the Waratahs, I don't know the current, but I know Czech has become the coach, will become the coach. Do you say to him, look, we want to get this particular guy here to play in a certain way. We need him to have a certain style because we're earmarking him as one of the three deep in the number 10 jersey, number 15 jersey for Australia. And he's on our watch list. But there's some of the skills we would like to get out of this kid. 41:57 for when he's a bit older, blah, blah, blah. Do you then sort of lean on check to help develop that? 42:04 When I was part of the Irish system for 10 years, there was collaboration in terms of how you talked with the provinces about skill sets that are important. One of the things I did learn is if you over-engineer and over-legislate that, you actually stop innovation. So I'm big for each state to innovate the best way they can. I need them to, I need Cheka, I need Larkin, Vern, I need Simon over in, I need them to find a way that suits them and plays for them. 42:35 Yeah. 42:37 If you rip back down, there are some skill sets that can be similar, but those will never be mandated by us. But we will chat to them about what they're doing. I've got a new coaching team, basically, that's the Wallabies. 42:50 We will be on the road come January and talk to each state about what they're doing and talk about how we're looking at it because we don't want them to be all the same. 43:00 We want them to be innovative because they might give us some clues about something that can be done. 43:05 at the breakdown or in the tackle or in terms of a phase attack, there may be some things that they're doing that becomes important for us. So if we did too much play like us, do what we do, I think we stop what we are as naturally. 43:20 So you don't take the top playbook and actually try and filter down through the system? 43:23 No, no. What each state will do, at the Reds, we had the Reds way, and we definitely put things through that for the kids to rip onto something, to be something like a Reds player. Each state will have a little bit there that they do through the systems. But from a national perspective... 43:39 You know, not many things are that different, but if there is a point of difference, we might discuss it, but we'll never ever say, you have to do this. 43:48 You know, I think we're one of the most innovative sporting nations in the world. We've proven that in many sports, from Olympic sports, right, or the team sports. Don't get in the way of that. Let it flourish. And then my job with my coaches is to pull that together and make sure that We get them on board for the little things that we feel that are important for us. And that's important, I think. Don't legislate to the point where everyone has to just be cookie cutters. Yeah, yeah. 44:15 You've had five wins. Congratulations. No, four wins and a draw. 44:19 Yeah, yeah. Had one draw. Yeah. 44:21 So you haven't been beaten. You're unbeaten. Yeah. 44:25 But coming up, it's a big test. I mean, the best team in the world. You've already talked about the Springbok system. 44:35 It's formidable. 44:35 How are you feeling about that? 44:40 Yeah, it certainly concentrates the mind. Do you get nervous? 44:45 Do you get nervous? 44:46 Yeah, bloody oath. 44:48 Does it stop you from sleeping? 44:50 Or do you wake up in the middle of the night? 44:51 I sleep well. I must say I do sleep well. Every now and then I wake up and I go, oh no, there's something. But I do sleep well. I'm actually very, very... 45:00 discipline to making sure I look after downtime and time that allows the mind to go elsewhere. Do you like meditate? Yeah, that type of thing. And ensure that there's a balance there and utilize my time at home with the missus in their most productive way. I mean, that's very important for me. But when my head's in footy, it's in footy. 45:20 So you can actually park your brain outside of it. So I get home, okay, I'm not going to think about what I've just been doing. 45:28 Well, I do because I know there's plenty of tabs open here all the time. I'm in the back of the head here. But I do make a concerted effort to do things. It's walking or whatever we like to do. We go and do something and chat. And a lot of the chat might be about footy because she's interested in footy. She met me as a rugby league player and she's now experiencing football. 45:47 rugby union now at the highest level so some of the discussions around that but making sure that you give balance I think it's so important but it doesn't mean I won't ever say I'm totally switched off but I do sleep soundly and make sure I look after myself healthily in that sense but the springboks They're on the mind here all the time. We had a coaches meeting this morning. It was very good. 46:18 We know what's at the doorstep. 46:21 But they're coming to our backyard. We've got to raise money. 46:26 not our expectation about winning. We want to win. That's just a given. But raise our expectation about what it means to be repetitively good at what we do and put it out in the park. And that's one thing that we're trying to drive on. 46:37 How do you get people, team members, and probably your staff members too, to accept that they're a winner? 46:48 Because it's a big thing, even in business. Some people are not used to winning. 46:57 How do you do that? 46:59 See, winning, it's a great question because you can get hijacked by winning. 47:07 On the opposite side too, because you think you're unbeatable. 47:10 Yeah. And, you know, if you're outcome driven without understanding how you get there, that's an issue. We use the word win, W-I-N, what's important now. 47:20 And right now, this is what the most important thing you must do. So your skill set has to be accurate, has to be resilient, has to be able to be robust and repeatedly turn up and aim up. With the spring box, if we're not good at the breakdown, repeatedly running and presenting the ball and cleaning out in the right way, they will hurt us. You know what I mean? So we need to understand what processes add up to winning. And that's important. So if How do you bring people into that space? You've got to make sure that we have the aspiration to know how good we can be. 47:52 Let's not cap this. Let's have blue sky. Know that various things are possible. But just because you say that's possible doesn't mean it happens. We are very, very rooted in making sure we get the fundamentals right, that they're repeatable under pressure, that they keep turning up under pressure. And if we can do that well, then... 48:12 the other parts of our game come together. And one of the big things is, I want this team to be able to express who we are, be skillful. And skillful doesn't mean willy-nilly throw the ball everywhere. I remember a great statement, I think it was attributed to Artie Beetson. He was an unbelievable ball player. He was noted as one of the best ball players of his time. 48:30 But he was defined by the ones he didn't throw. And that's important. 48:35 Very judicious. 48:36 Yeah, you have to be. And skillful doesn't mean just throwing the ball. It means knowing what matters right here and now. What's important now is a little bit of a... Or what's possible. 48:46 Yeah. And what is possible? Because I might be standing up in the tackle like Arthur and he would know, well, there's no point throwing the ball there because he's going to get collected. Yeah, exactly. I might as well just go down with the ball. I'm just thinking back to what you said earlier about the Springboks and South Africa in terms of their style of play. Were you trying to meet their style of attrition in Will you try to meet that as opposed to go above it? And then will you try to then unpick them in terms of what you use the word manipulation? 49:17 Manipulate around them? Yes. I don't want you to give away this strategy. 49:21 No, no, it's a balance of two. 49:22 I think you have to do that with Springboks. You cannot... 49:26 escape the physical side. But that means you have to match them or you... Yeah, you match them and better them. And try to do better. 49:34 Yeah. Okay. And our guys want that physical confrontation. They want to be able to step up and show what we are in a more, in a scrum, in our carries, in our clean outs. They will not step away from that. That is a given. Yeah. And it's just that when the forces do become equal, what's the difference? 49:55 Then what happens then? 49:55 Yeah, speed, guile, opportunity, manipulation. 50:00 It's big in the game now, aerial pressure and what happens off those aerial contests. The breaking moments in between set-piece, when the ball's loose, who are we? What can we become? And I think we're a bloody good nation in that world. We can play a Harlem Globetrotters style of game, but it's all rooted in good instinct and good structure and good understanding of each other and good understanding of what your skill sets are. 50:27 So trying to make sure that we... 50:30 I'm not just trying to be a team that throws the ball around. We need to be physical, direct. We need to be north. We need to penetrate. We need to challenge the opposition mentally, not just physically, but mentally and tactically consistently. And I think that's where our big growth is, just to have repeatability in those things. We've proven that we are very good. 50:51 But can we be very good for a full 80? You're not going to have it perfect, and that's for sure. It's going to be imperfect. Can we do that game on game? Can we do that for a tournament? And that's what we're working on and making sure that we understand what it takes to do that. 51:06 2027 is going to be a tournament, and it's an exciting World Cup coming up. Do you think... You talked about... 51:16 contesting the ball in the air. 51:18 Of course, Mark Nwongatendawazi is going to Rugby Union next year. He's not bad in the air. 51:26 Max is good. Max is pretty good too. 51:30 Quite incredible, actually, some of the stuff that Mark can do on his fingertips. I don't know if you saw what he did at Penrith on the weekend, which has been played over and over again. But that ability to catch the ball literally on his fingertips, throw it back into his chest, grab hold of it, then get up and outrun the opposition. 51:47 He must get pretty excited about those prospects. Certainly do, yeah. I mean, will you have, in rugby league, I'll have Sam Walker will kick to Mark or he'll kick to Daniel Tooper, but will you play that sort of game a little bit? 52:02 We will definitely be trying to, they do it now, that we kick to what space you know is going to be open, but you kick to the person that we owe up. 52:10 Now that's different. Yeah. 52:11 Is that a different, is that a bit of a slight development in, uh, yeah, that's, that's, that's something that's really been really more important. There's two forms of, um, kicking to contest. That is the one when there's free open space and you have someone has a free catch on it and having accuracy of kick, but you tell you position your resources compared, uh, depending on where they are. Kick to the space with catch. It's a free, a free kicker. It should be if it's accurate in a catch, but the contest in the air and everyone's, there's two people mainly go for the ball. 52:40 Um, That's become a massive part of the game. Now, the contest generally would say is 50-50 most of the time, but some teams win 60% and more than you. So you've got to develop that skill. 52:53 I'm not sure if it's recent we've done it, but I know in the past we've used Aussie Reels boys to help in those skill sets, which is definitely good. When I was working for Irish rugby, there's a strong Gaelic football, which is the genesis of Aussie Reels anyway, and they're very good in the air and catch above their head. 53:10 They know how to get timing at the right time and meet the presses above where that ball's going to be and control that space. There's a skill set we do have. It's something that we feel we can be better at. 53:22 because that breaking ball, that moment, that moment is when the defense is most disheveled. It's trying to find form. 53:29 And sometimes they're going backwards too. 53:30 That's right. 53:31 It's harder to jump with the timing going backwards. It just looks like that to me anyway. 53:35 Yeah. And how you catch the ball in your own kicks, how you catch balls when they're kicked against you, how you protect the circle around it, how you are then off the ball, because in those breaking moments, that's the most that can be the most precious time to attack the opposition. 53:48 What's that breaking moment mean? 53:49 Well, by that, if it gets up there and the ball spills and no one catches it, those moments, things can happen. You need to be ready for it. So they're an exciting world. 53:59 It's quite... It is becoming an exciting reunion. I mean, I think... 54:03 Now, compared to say maybe four or five years ago, it was just a little bit too flat for me. But now it's getting a bit more exciting, especially with like contesting the ball in the air, like not a long kick, the shorter kicks. And I find that stuff really exciting. 54:17 Yeah. And I think the balance for us is how do you, and most teams, some teams kick more than others. 54:23 Maybe they aren't as proficient as using their attacking capacity, so they use that and then when they get the breaking ball or win that moment, they attack when the opposition is not as organised. We utilise our ability to move the team with ball in hand and attack spaces that we feel we can manipulate. But this breaking ball or the catching the ball and the opposition aren't as ready, they become precious moments of the game. And it's an exciting game. I think two things, the law changes a bit, it helped. But I think coaching and generally more ambition from coaches around the world to be able to play a little bit more... You mean a bit more innovative? 55:02 Innovative and attack the game definitely for sure. And tactically... 55:07 The differences in the game and tactics are quite different from team to team. And that's an interesting thing as well. Is that what you bring to the Wallabies, do you think? Yeah, I will bring a different tactical approach to it, a different lens. But I do work with my coaches closely. I invite them into the room. 55:27 How many coaches, extra coaches, would you have in there? 55:29 So we've got four or five, including a scrum coach. So the scrum coach is quite a specific skill set. 55:36 So you're a set-piece coach, defense coach, tech coach, and a breakdown coach, basically. But we merge our talents. And I don't like my coaches sitting in a silo. You're only doing this. And once that's finished, you've got nothing else to do with the game. I like them to be integrated and that we collaborate in terms of what we get to. You still need one voice, which is my job. Yeah. to drive it, but we're together in how we get there. And I use their smarts as well. 56:03 Do you pick those people? Yeah, yeah. Well, three of them were there before I came, but I sat with Peter Horne and Joe Schmidt and interviewed them at the time so that they could continue with Joe until he left. And then I brought in myself and two other guys fresh into the system. 56:20 So how do you feel about the World Cup? I mean, obviously you're excited about it, but Do you think that Australia's going to, our team, the Wallabies, are going to excel? Do you think that, I mean, I know you're going to say yes when of course you're going to say yes, but do you feel in your heart of hearts that we're ready for this? I mean, would you love another year or two? 56:42 I accept the time I have. I'm not going to wish for anything else. I can only deal with the reality I've got this many months. 56:48 Play what's in front of you. 56:49 Yep, exactly. And there won't be one person who will say, I wish we had more time. We don't. We just have the time we have and that's what we do. 56:56 Have you got enough time though between here and when to start? 56:59 We certainly have. October. October. 57:01 So you've got, you've got a year effectively. 57:02 We've got 13 more months. We've got seven tests for us for this year. Then we've got another six or seven next year. 57:07 So we've got seven more tests for this year. Yes. Before the end of the calendar year. Yes. 57:12 Wow. Yeah. So we've got time to. Seven. Yeah. That's a lot. We've got the Springboks, the All Blacks twice in the Bledisloe. And then we've got four down in Europe, um, And where's the Bledisloe being played? First one's at Eden Park. Yeah. Which is, I think it's 86 since the last time. Yeah, we haven't won for a long time. And the second game's at Accor here in Sydney. Right, okay. They'll be two big games, massively. We get the first one and then the Bledisloe's open. We haven't been able to win it for years. Yeah. So that's another challenge, you know what I mean? Yeah. 57:42 But we do have, you know, I've got a plan forward and we say where we're going with this and how we're building things. 57:48 But we have a little saying right here, right now. And right here, right now, there's a Springbok team. 57:53 Yeah, that's it. 57:54 A top of the world. 57:56 They've just beaten the All Blacks three games in a row. 58:00 It's formidable. 58:03 But, look, it's our backyard. 58:06 We've got to stand up. It's time. It's time. And I look at the World Cup. We have approached a lot of discussions about it with the group to say, you know, this next 13, this is a once-in-a-lifetime unique opportunity for this bunch of boys. You know what I mean? There's young men. 58:24 Let's not leave any stone unturned. Let's make sure we find out how good we can be and why not get there and do something special. But it doesn't happen because we say it. W-I-N, what's important now? What's right here in front of us? We've got to make these little steps along the way. We've got to get better at certain things. We have to get better at certain things. 58:45 That's our job as coaches and our players to challenge each other to get better and those things. And, you know, it starts Sunday week, you know what I mean? Springboks in Perth. 58:58 And, you know, Perth is, you know, there's more Yarpies living there than Australia, it's just about. Yeah. 59:04 It's going to be a formidable atmosphere. That's good. We welcome those things. We need these challenges. I mean, the Springboks and then two All Blacks. That's brilliant. That's pretty amazing. It was a good prep for the World Cup. It is, yeah. And next year, we've got an Anzac test in around March. And that game's going to be played, I think, at 1 p.m., then followed by the Aussie Rules, the Rugby League, and then those traditional matches. Rugby's now on the stage there, so we're going to play the Kiwis there in Suncorp on Anzac Day. 59:32 That's a big day. Yeah, it's a massive day, yeah. And then we play the Kiwis twice later in the year and then we play them in the pool. So we're going to play them one, two, three, four, five, six times. Well, you should know their style of play by a tour. Well, they know us, yeah. In a way, they play here so often. So they're going to be unbelievable and a team to beat in the World Cup as well. 59:51 They're a good team. Well, can I ask you one more question? 59:56 I'll put something to you. In the 90s, I watched a lot of rugby union and I had a lot of friends playing rugby union and a lot of the older guys in my age group who used to watch the game in the 90s often lament They would say, I love rugby union when I was running rugby. The other brothers, you know, Damian Smith used to play on the wing. There was a lot of movement and they're backing themselves, you know what I mean? Is that coming back? 60:27 Or why hasn't it come back? What's the difference? I definitely want it to come back. I do believe the players want more of that. It's who we are. It's in our DNA in a way. 60:40 To back yourself. 60:40 Yeah. You go back to when you were in the backyard. You found a way, didn't you? You found a way to beat your mate and his mate in the backyard or in the beach. You're just competitive. Yeah. You have an edge to you. You want to beat them in many different ways. I think the way that we are built, that's who we are. We've got to be able to use the ball and have a bit of running rugby. 61:02 But you have to balance it up in the right way for the right things. That's for sure. 61:07 It's not going to be just loose and totally hard. It has to be a good balance and manipulate the game and territory the way that you should. Take examples out of a league how you manipulate the game forward and and make the right metres and kick in the right space and utilise those type of pressure points in a useful way, definitely. But, you know, these boys like to play. They like to play. They like to be skilful. 61:32 We just have to learn how to manage that pressure in the best way possible. 61:36 So, Liz, do you reckon rugby union guys are... 61:40 like at the Wallaby level, or maybe at every level, are sometimes sort of constraining themselves a little bit because, you know, like maybe they'd love to be passing the ball and, you know, moving it around and, you know, a bit more like rugby league does. And then they say, oh, no, hang on, I've got to be a bit more structured because I've got to play the game the way the boss wants it. 62:00 Well, it's like this. In league, there's moments where you just have hit-ups to create opportunity for reads. Yeah. So that's running rugby, but there's still a structure and organize how you go forward. Yeah, yeah. 62:13 How you get to running rugby. Yeah. So it's not all running rugby. It's how do I get to that point where we can run the ball? 62:19 Yeah. And then pick things apart and use our strengths against an analyzed or a possible weakness. You know, league do it. They look at their right side defender, three him. We know we can pump him. We can bully him. Yeah. 62:32 Or he looks a bit tired. Yeah, very similar. In our game, you don't have set people in positions in defence. Suddenly, the second from the edge could be a big prop. Why wouldn't you run at them? You know what I mean? It's not going to be as fast and nimble as Max Jorgensen, for example. 62:48 The variables are there, but the tenets of the game go forward, create space in different ways is there. But running rugby, if that's the term, it's not out of the realms that it can't be a good formative part of who we are. 63:02 I think in a way that's how we're built, but we also need to understand that we have to meet the other components of the game go forward. 63:08 It's funny you should say because you just talked about picking someone off. I remember watching, I can only get back to the lead, but I remember watching Nathan Cleary, I kept looking at him. He kept watching Mark Nwonga-Tenawazi. When he first started playing for the Roosters, I think he worked out that Mark, because he's a big guy, got big legs, he would fatigue a bit. 63:31 And Nathan waited until they were pressing our try line, and Mark was standing at the goal post, and he kicked straight to Mark. You can see Mark's legs are stuffed. And they scored. Yeah. And Nathan just jumped up, picked the ball and scored. And those sort of guys who can pick out the weakness on the other side is incredibly... Max Jorgens is one of those sorts of guys. 63:56 Yeah. And we've got people who we're trying to grow their understanding of seeing the cues, which are right down to the individual. Are they tired? Are they bollocks? Yeah. Or he is a weak left-side defender. Yeah. 64:08 Because he's weak, the others react to him and it creates other space. All those things are in rugby as well. I remember playing at Bear Park the first time I played against Steve Mortimer. And I thought, I'm annoying. And I'm trying to go up. He sees me go up. He kicks in the corner. I go back. He passes out the edge. They're all geniuses, aren't they, these guys? They pick you out and they say, I've got you, Mark. Yeah. Yeah. 64:31 That's always been the game, and the Australians are pretty good at that. I'm not saying other nations are. The other nations are as good, if not better, but that's who we are. We will be that, but we have to be the other thing as well that gets us forward, yeah. 64:44 Well, let's kiss. I mean, I'm looking forward to you leading Australia as the Wallaby coach and mentor and everything else you stand for, not only against the Springboks next week, but the All Blacks, a couple of games, the Bledisle Cup. Please bring it home for a change. And all the games you're going to be playing next year and then the World Cup. Thanks very much. This has been awesome, mate. 65:05 Yeah, thanks for your time and I really enjoyed it, mate. So thank you. Cheers. Thank you, man.