James O'Brien - The Whole Show

00:02 This is a Global Player original podcast. 00:06 It is three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I did something yesterday that I don't regret exactly, but I think it might be quite interesting to share with you. I didn't go all in on the suggestion that Starlink had been deliberately switched off in order to help Vladimir Putin commit war crimes in Ukraine. 00:35 Okay, Starlink is the satellite system owned by Elon Musk, but not, it transpired a little later yesterday, although some people may have known this already, not controlled by Elon Musk. The elements of his technology that are relevant to this conversation are controlled by the Pentagon, by Donald Trump, ultimately, by the President of the United States of America. And... 01:04 I think this is interesting. Forgive me if you don't. But part of the reason I didn't go all in on it was because I couldn't quite believe it and I couldn't obviously prove it. So we had a journalist from the Financial Times booked towards the end of yesterday's program who was going to sort of explain everything to us, dot the I's and cross the T's. And I was a little bit reluctant. And I don't know if this is a sign of me being, I don't know, some sort of subconscious cowardice I didn't want to do it on my own because I didn't feel that I had the qualifications. 01:38 I read everything that was available. I watched everything that was available. And I was probably 80% certain that either Elon Musk or Donald Trump or both had deliberately sabotaged Ukrainian military activity. 01:56 And I think the other reason why I was a little bit wary of going all in on this yesterday was because I still can't quite believe it. 02:04 I still can't quite believe it. 02:08 There's also a danger. And listen, I mean, this is just one of the small crosses you have to bear when you do what I do for a living. But if you are of the left or of a liberal disposition and you make a mistake, however small, it will be hung around your neck forever. 02:22 I try very, very hard not to speak ill of the dead. 02:26 But some prominent right wing figures who've passed away recently had truly hideous CVs and yet received almost wall to wall hagiographies when they passed. And it just struck me that, you know, when Ed Miliband dies, we'll probably be talking about bacon sandwiches. And yet when people who have been either convicted of terrible crimes or who have written absolutely hideous words pass away, if they are perceived as being of the right, then so dominated and so biased is our media that they get canonized. 02:57 in obituaries. It's just a little observation. I really hope that I didn't bottle it yesterday. I really hope I didn't step back, as it were, from stating what I thought was true, because I was too worried about what would happen if it subsequently threw. No fault of my own. But of course, that doesn't matter in the Crucible. of the British media, it turned out not to be true. I just put that in in passing because there's another element to this. If you are perceived as being of the right or whatever phrase you prefer, then you can kind of act more or less with impunity. 03:33 Wladimir Zelensky, for example, gave an interview last night to the British journalist Piers Morgan, who has historically been one of Donald Trump's biggest cheerleaders. I mean, to the point... 03:43 if I recall correctly from when I was on Twitter, of sort of going after anybody who criticized Trump like a rat up a drainpipe. But nothing sticks to these people. I don't think that Morgan was pro-Brexit, but, you know, the general type is pro-Brexit, pro-Trump, pro-Boris Johnson, whatever it may be. But certainly, in his case, very, very pro-Trump. And what are we supposed to do? We're all supposed to just forget Trump. that even people who kind of said after the January the 6th atrocities that this was now untenable kind of crept back into the fan club subsequently. 04:19 Well, those of us who've sat absolutely resolute in the camp that says the man's disgusting, the man is depraved, the man is morally bankrupt, Probably, you know, there aren't that many people lucky enough to have a high profile in the UK media who have done that. But if they were to make a mistake, God forbid, it would be shouted from the rooftops. But you can sort of silently remove your slavish support for Donald Trump and no consequences whatsoever. 04:52 I just genuinely, I know this is a bit self-indulgent or at least self-referential, but I find it... I find it absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating, that you can now see it coming down the slipway, the revisionism. By this time tomorrow, nobody would ever have written a column in a British newspaper or gone on social media in a position of prominence in the British media or stood up, with the possible exception of Nigel Farage, who I can't really see wriggling off this particular hook. 05:22 By this time tomorrow, nobody would have... Nobody would have been a big fan of Donald Trump. Nobody ever would have used the phrase Trump derangement syndrome to describe people who have been proved right about absolutely flipping everything. Will they? Literally. Just watch it happen. If they do, if they are shameless enough not to go all in now on recognising Trump's depravity, then it will become a question about whether or not we should still be supporting Ukraine. Because this is what Trump is doing. You want to know what Vladimir Putin wants. I don't think... 05:53 I've said this before. Apologies if somebody else has. 05:57 But I would stick it on a T-shirt. Seriously. Put it in the Louvre. If you want to know what Vladimir Putin wants, have a look at what Donald Trump is doing. 06:08 And he's taken to social media today or last night to attack... 06:14 Volodymyr Zelensky, and to critique US support for Ukraine. I know he's been in power now for quite a long time, but it's all Joe Biden's fault, and somehow he had nothing to do with any of it, and they shouldn't have given him money, and he's just a failed comedian anyway. It's a hideous rant. 06:31 But that, of course, is all that Trump does. It's all he's ever done, and it's all he ever will do. A hideous rant. 06:38 And there it is. 06:40 Here we are. 06:42 All of the people that have spent the last couple of years, and people wrote columns, you know, about how good it was going to be. 06:50 All the usual suspects, Jacob Rees-Mogg, almost certainly. All your Daily Telegraph comment writers, Kemi, Badenoch, Nigel Farage, oh, Trump's going to be great. He's upsetting all the right people. And I think Ukraine... is really important to British politics, let alone the humanitarian side of it and the peace side of it. But everyone agreed that we should be backing Ukraine, right? It was really weird the way those planets aligned. Apart from a few tankies and terminally online weirdos, everybody agreed that we had both a moral and a diplomatic responsibility to Ukraine. 07:26 And it came from a beautiful place. I don't understand where it came from, because the British public can be so easily persuaded to hate all foreigners, as we saw during Brexit and subsequently. And remember that Brexit was not about people of colour. Brexit was about getting rid of Eastern Europeans. It was about getting rid of Poles and getting rid of... White people, the wrong kind of white. Remember Farage talking about people not speaking English on trains? 07:51 It wasn't just about colour. It was a rolling out of the red carpet for Eastern European people not long after we became the first population in history to impose economic sanctions on itself because so many people had been persuaded that Eastern European people were their enemy. It was a beautiful moment in British history, actually, that... And of course, it was, I mean, government facilitated, but it involved armies of British families throwing open their doors for people fleeing the scene of a war crime. 08:27 And we stepped up. I think we may have stepped up more enthusiastically and more effectively than any other country in Europe. I'm probably wrong about it. I mean, certainly not Poland. Stop it, James. Shut up now. I mean, you know, we did well. We don't have to have been better than everybody else. I'm turning into one of them. 08:46 And now we are contemplating irrefutable evidence that Donald Trump, the politician most beloved of Nigel Farage, the politician who Richard Littlejohn at the Daily Mail wishes was governing this country, the politician that Boris Johnson insisted was going to be an absolute mensch for British interests, the politician that people were queuing up to tell us was upsetting all the right people and doing all the... All the right things. Donald Trump is inarguably on the side of Vladimir Putin in an illegal war against Ukraine. 09:22 The president of the United States of America is on Vladimir Putin's side. 09:28 We can sit here till the cows come home arguing over whether or not it's because he's been blackmailed by Vladimir Putin or whether it's because he is so fundamentally base and driven so entirely by atavistic appetites that he will just always go wherever he thinks his self-interest lies. Imagine not being able to conceive of what a principle is. This is what you have to do. We have wasted hours days, weeks on this programme, trying to analyse Donald Trump. 10:00 Why is he doing this thing? How should Andy Burnham handle him? Should Sir Keir Starmer have done this, that or the other? I have sat here inviting your calls and pontificating and stroking my chin and wondering why he's doing this. It's a waste of flipping time. It's a waste of energy. It's a waste of time. And it's a waste of your attention. 10:25 Because he does what he does because he can. And if there is a path in front of him that involves depravity, amorality, and siding with dictators and war criminals against democracies and decency, he will just go there. 10:43 He will just go there. It doesn't really matter, quotes, why, question mark, end quotes. He just will. 10:52 I don't even think it's always self-interest. Sometimes I think the cruelty is the point. 10:57 So you can't imagine a conscience so curdled that it derives epic pleasure from other people's pain. But those are the only policies he's ever offered to his supporters. Vote for me. I will hurt some people who are not you. And then, of course, we have the leopards eating face principle. When it kicks in, people realise, actually, no, he will hurt you as well. And other people will cheer. It's not just that Nigel Farage's party conference that people get beaten up. by the crowd. It happened at one of Trump's recently as well. And Trump started mocking the man being assaulted by his fans for being overweight. 11:29 Donald Trump mocking people for being overweight. It's like me mocking people for being smug. 11:35 You can't even be... Do you see what I mean about the waste of time and energy in analysing this stuff? It's like asking why Al Capone had people killed. 11:46 It's like asking why Vladimir Putin sends goons to this country to try to murder and to successfully murder, in Alexander Litvinenko's case, critics of his regime. That's just who they are. It's what they do. We can't use our intellectual capacity to work out who these people are. 12:04 It's just shocking, isn't it? And what's most shocking is that, for me at least, because of what I do for a living and how much I despair at the state of public discourse in this country, the speed with which all of the people who said he was going to be great will now wash their hands of him completely. 12:21 Here's one of them, actually. Here is Piers Morgan interviewing Volodymyr Zelensky about his reaction to the discovery that Trump had agreed to buy Russian oil. Let me rephrase that. That Trump had agreed to let American motorists subsidise Vladimir Putin's war crimes in Ukraine. 12:39 It's a pity that we are losing. 12:42 We are losing strong partner. 12:46 So this is my opinion. 12:48 You think you're losing America? 12:51 Yeah, but not because of us. We, I mean, we can't be weak. Otherwise, we can't survive. Otherwise, we will just, we are not selling our country. Look, guys, it's not about business for us. It's just our life. And this is our country. It's our body. So our home, our children. And this is very important for us. That's why it's painful when President Trump chooses one side, not Not our side, but we are OK that he's in the middle. 13:23 But if you're in the middle, you have to stay in the middle, not on the wrong side. 13:29 And then Elon Musk came forward yesterday to blame Donald Trump for imposing speed limits on the Ukrainian drones that use his Starlink technology. An extraordinary intervention. Another man responsible for blowing so much smoke up Donald Trump's backside, it started coming out of his ears. Another one. now sort of turning around and apparently having some sort of second thoughts. The Pentagon set a speed limit on Ukraine's drones, which massively compromised their capabilities. In fact, as Volodymyr Zelensky put it, people would die as a result. 14:04 And Ukraine's former defense minister accused Musk of having done it. And Musk responded by saying that the shields, the systems, the star shield systems are owned and controlled by the US government. Any limits on speed or usage are decided by the US military. and POTUS. And frankly, I don't care. Because if you did so much, if you did as much as Elon Musk to put Donald Trump in the White House, to put Donald Trump in charge of that decision, then you may as well have made the decision yourself. It's a little bit like inviting a sociopath to babysit and then wringing your hands and keening and wailing when you come home to discover that he's hurt your children. 14:40 I mean, it's just unbelievable, the mess that we are in now. And it is defined and distilled down to one single thing. The president of the United States of America is on the side of the war criminals in an illegal war. 14:57 Two questions. What does that mean? 15:00 What does that mean for us, for you, for me? What does that mean? 03456060973. And the second question, what should we do? And by that, I mean our government. So the first question, bring in anything. You know, what does it mean for Ukraine? What does it mean for the UK? What does it mean for the West? What does it mean for the post-world order? What does it mean for peace? This is one of those mornings when I'm asking quite a lot of you, but frankly, I think you're up to it. What does this actually mean? Because yesterday, it was the tiger. 15:30 I pointed out to you, we could get more exercised about the hideous tweets about the tiger, the young man being mauled in a British zoo. Somehow that, we can build up our energy more about that. We can, the newspapers have done it today, in fact. You can, it's easier to sort of get a hand But this is bloody huge. It doesn't get bigger than this. Donald Trump, the president of the United States of America, has sided with the Kremlin. The White House and the Kremlin are in lockstep against Western interests, against Western allies and against Volodymyr Zelensky's Ukraine. 16:03 The most diplomatic man on the world stage has finally had to go there. He's had to say it as it is. The days of hoping that this will come out in the wash or appeasing him or moving on, they're behind us now. He's done it. He's gone there. 16:17 And we don't really know what it means, you and me. 16:21 We don't know this rock that's been thrown into the pond of peace in the West. We don't know where the ripples go. But we're going to try and work it out together. 03456060973 is the number you need. What does it mean for the world that Donald Trump irrefutably, inarguably and unmistakably has now sided with Vladimir Putin against Ukraine and against all of Ukraine's allies, which is us? 16:51 Mad, right? Still too big for you to get your head around? Maybe? I don't know. Let's try. And then the second question is, what the heck can Andy Burnham do? What should he do? What could he do? What can he do? What will he do? 17:02 That should do it, I think, to kick us off on a Thursday morning. 17:06 Mystery Hour coming up at 12, so it won't all be heavy, but I need help with this because, you know, I can tell you exactly what is going on. I can't tell you what it means, except that quite possibly we are absolutely free 23 minutes after 10 is the time. I don't care why he does what he does anymore. I've wasted too much time trying to work it out. It doesn't matter why he does what he does. What matters is what it means and what we do about it. And I wonder if we can do anything, genuinely. Think about this 20 years ago, 30 years ago, middle of the Cold War. 17:40 What's that you say? The president is on the same side as... 17:45 The Kremlin, the President of the United States is on the same side as the Kremlin. Kennedy and Khrushchev are in cahoots. Reagan and... Who was the one before Gorbachev? Anyway, they're in cahoots. 17:58 Putin and Obama are on the same team. Bush and Putin are on the same team. 18:04 What does it mean? And what do we do about it? John's in Halifax. John, what would you like to say? 18:08 Morning, James. How are you doing? 18:09 I'm all right, mate. 18:11 Yeah. I was just talking to Ashley there... Well, we can do... 18:15 I should say I'm going to Ukraine on Saturday with a group of people from Leeds, from our organisation. I volunteer with an organisation called Drive 2 Save Lives. 18:26 And we've sent 500 4x4 pickup trucks, ambulances, fire engines, you name it. I just think the important thing is... 18:35 You know, we're all on the same page with regard to Trump and these guys. Well, I mean, I think the people who are volunteering I'm talking about, and probably most of your listeners, but my point is that we can do something about it ourselves, James. 18:49 Ah, you're a good man. 18:50 You know? 18:51 You're a good man. I'm going to take you right back to the very beginning, okay, if I can, and I'm going to say why. Why did you and your friends and colleagues decide to take it upon yourselves to get aid out to Ukraine? 19:01 Well, our friend Taras from Bradford set it up at the beginning of the full-scale invasion. 19:08 Scores, hundreds of people have joined up since because they feel, well, one of our American volunteers put it best, I think. Life's not a spectator sport. 19:19 And this is, I sometimes wonder, I worry sometimes, John, that the Second World War spoilt us a bit in the context of how complicated conflicts can be. Because the Second World War was good versus evil. We may not have been entirely clear about how clear that division was at the time, but my God, with the benefit of hindsight, we certainly are. And for me, this has always been the same. It's always been exactly the same. You have a murderous, expansionist dictator illegally invading sovereign territory and trying to essentially suppress the population. 19:52 And yet, I still don't think everybody sees it that clearly. I still don't think everybody sees it as clearly as you. So what did you see that other people missed? 20:01 James, I've been in Lviv and we know... Well, Lviv is the city in the west and that's where we tend to deliver our vehicles to be distributed to the front. I've been in Lviv when there's been large-scale... 20:13 against Zelensky sacking his defence secretary and things like that. It's a free society. There's every stripe of religion. And I hate this when people say, oh, it's corrupt, it's not perfect. It's a free country, and the people are working towards improving the democracy. They're doing it as a free, sovereign nation, and they've been invaded by, for my money, a fascist, authoritarian... No, it's not just your money. 20:43 So what do we think the significance is of the fact? And I suppose that historians of the future will sit there and splutter at the fact that we didn't all realise this after that attempted humiliation of Zelensky in the Oval Office. And that was extraordinary. It could have been choreographed by Vladimir Putin that moment. But if there were any lingering doubts that Trump is not absolutely on Putin's side in this war, they have now gone. What's the significance of that? 21:08 I personally think it goes back quite a bit further. If you look at the Russian actions in Chechnya at the beginning of Putin's reign, when you see what it did to Grozny, when you see what it did to cities within the Russian Federation... when you see he was undermining and attacking the Estonian national internet. 21:27 But not with the connivance and approval of the President of the United States of America. 21:33 You're absolutely right. This takes it to a whole other level. 21:36 Yeah, the expansionist agenda has been there since pretty much. Yeah, he came in as a great supporter of Glasnost and Perestroika. One of his key mentors was the actual author of the new Russian constitution. So he played the whole of Russia. like a rusty old fiddle. But I'm talking about the pivot of this year or this administration, Trump's second term. What on earth does it mean for Ukraine that Trump is on Putin's side? What does even, I know we can only speculate, but I'd like you to try. What does it even mean psychologically and emotionally for the Ukrainian people to have felt the support, albeit often inadequate support, of pretty much the entire world, and now they know that Donald Trump is on Vladimir Putin's team? 22:21 I can only speculate. Of course. I'm going to be in Ukraine on Saturday and Sunday. I'll be talking to people and we'll find out. But from what I've spoken to people, the things that we're seeing, the messages that were coming back, um they find it heartbreaking that you know they are making the ultimate sacrifice we work with with people of lots you know we support veterans families and things like that and to see that you know a country for all its faults or rights or wrongs that people in ukraine and other countries have seen as a beacon of freedom and democracy to see them Basically, I mean, Kash Patel is actually in Moscow tweeting from the Kremlin today. 23:02 Is that true? I've done it again, John. I've done it again. 23:05 It's been shared from... 23:06 I know, and I haven't triple-checked it yet, so I haven't said it on air. You know, this isn't the BBC. I haven't got 100 people handing me slips of paper and helping me put it out. But is it true that Kash Patel has done this? Is it definitely true? 23:19 As far as I'm aware, I've had it shared to me from a very, very... So that's the head of the FBI? That's correct, yeah, yeah. 23:25 And I've read the line, from Russia with love. Surely that's not true. That can't be true. 23:30 Is it too big, do you think? I'll be honest with you, I woke up yesterday and I thought, surely the leader of the three world isn't sharing a video of a poor, unfortunate guy getting mauled by a tiger in Doncaster. 23:41 Against the express desires of that poor young man's family. Good for you. 23:44 Can people support what you're doing? 23:48 People can support us. We are just one group across the UK. There's great groups in Macclesfield Aid, Ukrainian. There's Jeeps for Peace in Scotland. There's lots of groups, lots of Ukrainian clubs, especially in cities across the north of England, like Bratford and Salford, Keithley, with Ukrainian diasporas. But our group is Drive2SaveLives. We're easily findable on Instagram. And again, it's just for £2,000 or £3,000, we can get a decent... 24:18 Mitsubishi, Ford Ranger, whatever, and we take them. We took one the other week to a lad from the Midlands who's fighting as a British volunteer. 24:28 So people can do that and these trucks and these ambulances do make a massive, massive difference. 24:34 The name of your organisation once again. You're such a good man. You've done two things there. You've mentioned other people that are in the same sphere as you, which is... 24:40 There's lots of other great groups. 24:42 I know there are, but just tell me the name of yours once again. 24:44 Ours is Drive2SaveLives. Anybody who wants to raise the money to get a truck, we can facilitate the fundraising. We're completely volunteer-powered. There's no money, no overheads. The volunteers even pay their own diesel. 24:57 I can't let you go yet. Listen, because you're a modest man, clearly, but I want you to try. 25:01 I've got a lot to be modest about. 25:03 Well, haven't we all? But why? Why are you doing it? 25:10 People have got lots of different reasons. What's yours? 25:13 Tell me yours. Just tell me about you. 25:14 Just a minute. I'll just have the postman at the door then. Sorry, but either way. That's all right. I was brought up... That's how we're live. 25:22 Sorry about that. I was brought up a trade unionist, the Labour movement, and always being an anti-fascist. That was always part of my make-up, and the people I grew up with, the people I worked with, went to university with. 25:36 And I suppose you always thought, well, what would you do if 25:40 if it started happening again. 25:41 You know, if we look back to Spain and the international volunteers and stuff, and obviously I'm not putting myself in that category, I'm not on the front line or anything, but, you know, people just see, it's just solidarity with a democratic country and wonderful people in Ukraine and we just want to help them. 26:00 And you're a star. You just are. And thank you for what you and your colleagues do and all the other organisations you mentioned as well. And do you know, he did something else there, John. He probably didn't even realise it. But I... 26:12 I opened the show a little bit self-indulgently by pointing out that the divide in politics, the divide in discourse in this country means that if you're on one side of that divide, you're held to an infinitely higher standard than people on the other side. And he reminded me that actually that is relevant to the bigger picture. Because we say things like that, don't we? We liberals, we progressives, we people who try to live decent lives, even if we don't always succeed. We say things like, well, of course, Ukraine isn't perfect. And yet on the other side of the divide, you have people who say that Donald Trump is perfect. 26:48 You have people who say that Vladimir Putin is perfect. He is the most admirable politician in the world, copyright Nigel Farage. 26:56 You never hear the other side admitting to flaws or weakness. You never hear them saying, well, of course, Donald Trump's not perfect, but it's mad that. And yet defenders of democracy, defenders of Ukraine have to. 27:12 And I don't think that we should necessarily change. Have to keep acknowledging imperfection. Have to keep acknowledging that there has been corruption in Ukraine. But someone very clever once said that democracy was the least bad option. 27:26 And I'm not sure that's ever been truer. Thank you, John. You're a legend. It's 10.33. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. 27:33 10.37 is the time. And I suppose the wisdom, as I shared with you a moment ago, of thinking it's important to double and triple check everything has come into sharp relief. Kash Patel, the head of the FBI, is not in Russia, as John and I were talking about a moment ago. But it was reported by one American network, MS Now, that he was, that he'd gone there for a two-day meeting. Still some confusion over whether or not it was originally scheduled, but it is clear that he did not go. And when MS now corrected their story, Kash Patel, the head of the FBI, chose to tweet, while Russia continues, of course, to murder Ukrainian civilians, including children, the head of the FBI chose to tweet from Russia with love, dropping bombs on Ukraine, killing innocent women and children, and the director of the FBI posts... 28:23 uh from russia with love strange times we live in but some things you can say with certainty donald trump is now on the side of the kremlin the white house is on the side of the kremlin and we don't know what that means got to be honest about it john's on his way there at the weekend our last caller and he doesn't really know what it means but i think we have to think about it we have to talk about it and we have to try and work it out because you know um you've got to address the big question sometimes you can't just and it's so tempting just to do a phone in about the psychological motivation of a man who chose to mock or contradict the express wishes of a dead man's family by posting footage of of his ill-advised trip into a tiger enclosure so much easier to get into that and yet This is what we should be talking about. 29:17 John's in Kingsland. John, what would you like to say? 29:20 Hiya. Just to take the cap off to the last fellow that was on, what a top guy. But I want to talk about the allegiances that have been spoken about with Russia or whatever it is that Trump has. And I think that we're actually, as a nation especially, overestimating Trump's humanity. 29:42 I'm going to have to say this very politely. 29:47 I don't care. 29:50 In what way? I don't care anymore. 29:53 I've spent, what, two years trying to analyse him, trying to work out what his allegiances are, what his motivations are, why he's doing what he's doing, whether or not Keir Starmer should do this and Andy Burnham should do that, and should we be more like Mark Carney or is Mark Rutter a ridiculous human being? And I don't think it matters. This isn't a criticism of you, mate. I don't think we've got the vocabulary. He's an ogre. You might as well ask why the giant in Jack and the Beanstalk is going to grind his bones to make his bread. 30:26 There's no point sitting here looking for psychological motivations that come from our shared vocabulary of common decency, because he don't speak that language, John. 30:34 He doesn't, but also he has no allegiances. So this allegiance that has been said he's now making with Russia, I don't think it exists. The only allegiance he's got is to himself. 30:46 And I think... that he's made a deal with Russia because he knows he's stuffed in the polls coming up. So he's trying to bring this oil in to try and temporarily lower prices out there for the petrol gas, whatever you want to call it. 31:00 And switching off Starlink if Elon Musk is correct and that was a White House or a... That's my next point. Go on then. 31:07 Because Russia isn't stupid. Putin is not stupid. He said, yeah, okay, you can buy this oil off me, but I want you to lower the Starlink speeds. 31:16 Yeah, OK. All right. I'm glad I didn't bite your head off. 31:23 Well, I mean, you can't throw Occam's razor in a skip, can you? Just because Donald Trump is immune to any sort of form of moral or psychological analysis. Occam's razor is what is left, the thing that makes the most sense. Why on earth would Donald Trump do this? Answer, because Vladimir Putin told him to. And if he wants to be able to announce... a completely trifling amount of diesel making its way to American consumers, essentially inviting them to subsidize Vladimir Putin's war crimes in Ukraine. Then Putin returns by saying, what's in it for me, Donald? 31:58 What's in it for me? 32:00 It's a transaction. 32:02 Exactly. And Trump is purely a transactional person as long as it's to his personal benefit. 32:07 Yeah, all right. And now, having already said so what at the beginning of your contribution and then regretted it, I'm going to say so what again. Because what does it mean in the context of what this all means for us? 32:18 Well, I think what it means for us is we need to be working really hard in building stronger alliances around the world. Now, I get it, we've got them. But we need to be looking to... 32:32 what I would call the more sensible countries around the planet. For example, Australia, Japan, Nordics, Canada. 32:40 Did you vote Brexit? 32:43 Did I vote Brexit? 32:47 No, I certainly didn't. No, I didn't think you did, but I just wondered why you were listing countries that aren't in the European Union. 32:53 Well, the EU is next on my list. 32:54 It's about flipping time because I was just thinking, wouldn't it be nice if there was a kind of single market or a block or some sort of customs union that might extend into defence as a sort of successor to the busted flush or at least to the sabotaged NATO that Donald Trump is responsible for? Wouldn't it be nice if we could be part of a group like that? And wouldn't it be silly if we'd all voted to leave it? 33:20 And make these alliances both economically, militarily, and for a better word, shun the United States until he's gone. 33:31 Yeah, well, even after he's gone, to be better prepared for anything that might happen in the future. 33:38 The key question here, of course, is, and I keep coming back to this, I've been back to this again and again and again and again and again, 33:45 Why was Nigel Farage so bothered by a European army? 33:49 I remember when he wasn't slagging off foreigners, all he ever talked about, and praising Putin, all he ever talked about 10 years ago was how awful it would be to have a European army. Do we have any idea why that was yet? 33:59 Even today? Ten years later? Ten years after the referendum? Why was Nigel Farage so opposed to a European army? For the same reason that Donald Trump is doing what he's doing. Do you think so? 34:09 Yeah, 100%. Nigel Farage is a carbon copy of Donald Trump. He'll say whatever he can say for his own benefit. That's it. 34:17 But even though what I think you've said about, or your deployment of Occam's Razor seems accurate, I still stand by my original line. If you want to know what Vladimir Putin wants, have a look at what Donald Trump is doing. 34:29 I don't know that, I mean, I suppose we could say, if you want to know what Vladimir Putin wants to happen in Britain, have a look at what Nigel Farage is doing. 34:37 100%. Cut from the same cloth. Tramp and sewage. Tramp and sewage. Exactly that. That was the name of my first band. Thank you, John. Lovely stuff. There you go. A little lesson for me there. I was about to jump down his throat for trying to psychologically analyse Donald Trump and it would have been a mistake to do so. But I stand by that observation. 34:57 If you want to know what Vladimir Putin wants, have a look at what Donald Trump is doing. Is the same true of Farage? If you want to know what Vladimir Putin wants in Britain, so Farage talked about poking the Russian bear when Crimea was originally invaded. He kind of talked utter nonsense, Kremlin-friendly bilge about Russia having been provoked. He used to go on Russia Today all the time. I presume he was paid for that. A propaganda network all the time and slag off Western leaders. At one point, I think he said something like, Europe is currently led by the worst people we've seen in Europe since 1945. 35:33 Now, who wants to hear that kind of stuff apart from Vladimir Putin? 35:39 I'm not suggesting for a minute that he is accepting money secretly to share Kremlin talking points in public discourse. That was his close friend and confidant and leader of Reform UK in Wales, Nathan Gill, who got busted for doing that. But if you want to know what Vladimir... And of course, they're all having kittens at the moment about the confirmation that Russia tried to interfere in the Brexit referendum. Whether they succeeded or not, this is important. Should have said this earlier this week. Whether they succeeded or not is moot. 36:10 It's actually immaterial. Number one, I don't think that Putin needed to intervene. If you've got Rupert Murdoch, you've got the owner of the Daily Mail, you've got the Daily Express, the Daily Telegraph, you've got all of these people. 36:25 And, you know, the entire Tory party, or at least... 36:31 The rump of the Tory party and the Eurosceptic movement and, of course, the man who thinks that Vladimir Putin is the most admirable politician in the world, Nigel Farage. You've got all of them shilling for Brexit. Putin didn't really need to get involved, but he did. 36:47 And they're all having kittens about it now. Not because it matters whether or not he influenced the result or not. You can never know that. You can prove interference. You can't prove influence. Your Uncle Bob's never going to put his hand up and say, God, I'm feeling really stupid now, son. 37:02 I voted Brexit because of Vladimir Putin's lies on the internet. It could have been Jacob Rees-Mogg's lies. It could have been Boris Johnson's lies. It could have been Nigel Farage's lies. It could have just been his innate racism. You're never going to be able to prove which... 37:15 pile of nonsense was responsible for any individual Brexit vote. So you're never really going to be able to prove influence unless you can prove that they cheated, that they kind of infiltrated the vote. 37:27 But you can prove interference. So why are they all having kittens about it? 37:30 You know why, right? 37:33 You know why. 37:36 Because it means they have to ask themselves a question. 37:40 And that question is this. 37:44 Why am I on the same side as Vladimir Putin on a question of Western democracy? 37:53 That's the question none of them are gonna ask themselves. Boris Johnson isn't gonna ask himself that question, Michael Gove isn't gonna ask himself that question, Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nadine Dorries, none of them. How did I end up on the same side as the war criminal dictator on a question about the future of British democracy or British sovereignty or British interests. How did I end up on the same side as Vladimir Putin? Because it's not just Donald Trump in Ukraine that is on the same side as Vladimir Putin. 38:25 It's 80% of our media and half of our political establishment on the issue of Brexit. 38:32 10.51 is the time. With no further ado, Christopher Miller is the chief Ukraine correspondent in Kyiv for the Financial Times. And he was due to join us yesterday, but we were rather overtaken by events talking, actually, that interview with Evan Gershkovic. So not exactly changing the subject, but I think when I sat down with Evan, week ago we both probably would have expressed shock at Trump making it quite so clear that he now is allied with Vladimir Putin's interests when it comes to the war against Ukraine. So the first question I'd ask you Christopher is how do you or we or anybody convey the sheer scale and importance of this moment? 39:15 Well, I guess it's maybe difficult to put into words, but it's hugely important. You know, the things that Donald Trump is threatening to withhold or withholding and cutting things like intelligence or speed limits on Star Shield, Starlink terminals in Ukraine are things that matter for, I mean, this is the difference between life and death here. You know, I mean, Zelensky has been very clear about that, you know, not being able to properly defend yourself, not getting intelligence that tells you when an incoming Russian attack is headed for the capital of Kiev, where I am right now with four million people. 39:58 When Starlink systems stop working in the middle of operations, the result is people die. We saw that last week. We saw that over the course of the last few days when Ukraine stopped striking Russian oil refineries and heated Donald Trump's unilateral energy ceasefire declaration. And the Russians broke it day in and day out. And numerous people died. I think, you know, the count yesterday was 10, but for sure last week there were more than 100 civilians killed. 40:28 And so it's a life and death difference. 40:31 And is there any room for even a scintilla of doubt that responsibility for this decision lies with the Pentagon or the White House or effectively both? 40:41 I mean, you know, we haven't gotten a response from the White House or the Pentagon about what happened. We do know, I've just been speaking with President Zelensky's team as they travel through Europe, and they were saying that Star Shield, Starlink connectivity and functionality has been restored. So the military is now... 41:03 being now able to use the drones and other systems with the Starlink system. So something has happened between last night and this morning that has allowed Starlink to come back on. We don't know what's happened with intelligence still because we don't know until an attack happens if that intelligence is coming through in time. But there's little doubt that something Something is at play here. It's, you know, two things happening simultaneously of this magnitude. 41:39 You know, it's rare. It's very rare. 41:43 And you refer also, of course, to a story you have out today about the US proposing that European countries, and again, I'm going to have to say this slowly because it is or would once have been unthinkable, European countries unfreeze some Russian sovereign assets that were immobilized after Moscow's invasion of Ukraine and wait for it because this is extraordinary. Transfer them to a vehicle overseen by Washington. 42:14 Yeah, yeah, that's right. This is what we reported, myself and my colleagues in the FT, you know, for some weeks now, but specifically during the latest meeting in Miami between Donald Trump's special envoys, Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, and the Ukrainians and European national security advisors. The Americans suggested that they unfreeze the Europeans, unfreeze the hundreds of billions of dollars or portions of it now and give it to Russia as sort of an incentive to come along and start negotiations, which, of course, the Europeans immediately shut down, the Ukrainians. 42:51 certainly are not on board with this and have been screaming to the high heavens about how Russia's frozen assets should be given to it for reparations and to help with its defense. I don't see this going forward the way the Donald Trump administration would like to, but it's one part of many that the Trump administration is... 43:15 you know, trying to introduce into these negotiations that looks certainly like they're helping out the Russians, the aggressor here, and not Ukraine, the country that has been invaded. 43:24 Well, it looks like they're ticking off items on a Vladimir Putin flavoured wish list, really, regardless of what the response is. It's, you know, have you done that yet? Have you asked for our money back yet? Have you turned off Starlink yet? I mean, it is, I don't want to labor the point. But it is, as you acknowledged at the very beginning, it's almost hard to articulate the significance of this. And Zelensky, who's been a model of diplomacy throughout, I mean, most obviously during that hideous experience in the Oval Office, he appears to have reached breaking point this week as well. 43:55 Yeah, he expressed his frustration to me even a couple of weeks ago. I met him for an interview here in Kiev. We were going to meet at his office. And we had discussed this the night before a big Russian attack. And instead, he let me know the next morning that we were going to meet at a school. where a Russian drone had crashed into the side of the building and left a giant gaping hole. And during that interview, he said, you know, our Western partners, Europe included, but particularly the United States are not doing enough. He reiterated that to my colleagues in London yesterday, where in an interview, he really sort of, I think, opened up and kind of let, you know, let loose his frustration toward the Trump administration. 44:35 And finally, Christopher, how does this land in Ukraine among ordinary people who no doubt have had suspicions and who will be following events more closely than the average Brit or American, obviously, but the now unavoidable truth of Donald Trump's allegiance, whether it's opportunistic or something more sinister to Vladimir Putin's interests. How does that affect the Ukrainian public or Ukrainian morale, do we think? 45:04 The Ukrainians have been pretty clear-eyed about Trump for many, many years. I mean, even before the full-scale invasion, the things that he would say about Zelensky himself and Ukraine during his first impeachment in 2019 were not flattering, right? So the Ukrainians are very politically smart, savvy people. They read up and, you know, they don't have a very high opinion of Donald Trump. They're, of course, extremely worried. that his fealty to Putin is going to lead to the United States, its biggest political and military backer, forcing it into negotiations that would see Ukraine make concessions here and not Russia. 45:42 So the mood is dark and grim. But when Donald Trump does these things with withholding intelligence or cutting Starlink connections or attacking Zelensky personally. It only works to bolster Zelensky's popularity in the country and really to get the Ukrainians to sort of, you know, circle the wagons. 45:59 Well, I suppose we can't avoid the fact that European leaders haven't done enough to sort of preemptively fill the vacuum that would be left by Trump's ultimate withdrawal. 46:10 Yeah, they're working on it in many ways. You know, there is a lot of money from the European Union coming to Ukraine. That money helps keep the government afloat, helps keep weapons flowing to Ukraine. That money, some of it does go to the United States through this Pearl system that is meant to procure defensive weaponry and other military equipment for Ukraine's defense, right? They're hitting Russia with harsher sanctions. too. So they are doing what they can. There are certain things, of course, that they, or certain gaps, rather, that they can't fill. 46:44 There is intelligence flowing, particularly from the UK and France to Ukraine. 46:49 They can fill some of that intelligence gap. But there are certain things, again, like for example patriot interceptor missiles which ukraine is desperate to have that defends against russia's ballistic missile attacks that europe you know has in some stocks in in some countries um but of course don't want to give up because of the global shortage of them but they can't produce them in the numbers that the americans can um you know and and so they're never going to be able to completely fill the gap which is why it's so important that not only Europe, but the United States remain united in support of Ukraine here. 47:25 Christopher Miller, thank you. And my apologies for inconveniencing you yesterday. Christopher, as I said, the FT's chief correspondent in Kyiv, chief Ukraine correspondent in Kyiv, and doing a better job than me, perhaps, of conveying the sheer magnitude of this moment. It's 11 o'clock. It is four minutes after 11. And there was something else in the FT's coverage of Zelensky's visit to Europe that I thought was worth sharing with you. Because although I have tired of trying to analyse Donald Trump's motivations and behaviour, I think we owe, at the very least, we owe it to ourselves to listen to Volodymyr Zelensky's. 48:05 And this is really clever, or at least thoughtful, insightful. 48:10 He speaks about it, Zelensky talking about Trump and his affinity for autocrats and the super wealthy. He speaks about it openly and loudly that he loves such people and he respects such people. Because for him, and we're talking now about people like Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong Un. Because for him, people who can be leaders 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, it means they can be very strong. So that analysis that sees him just as an ogre consuming everything in his path still stands. 48:46 But it's his admiration for Putin that is perhaps sometimes missing from the equation. I don't think Putin needs to blackmail him or to have compromising material on him, although he may well. 48:59 Trump just wants to be him. 49:01 He wants to have untrammeled power. He wants to be able to do whatever he wants for as long as he wants. And therefore, people who have achieved that, Trump is in awe of. 49:13 And he's not the only one, is he? Because we have people in British politics who are supine with admiration for both Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump, which is why it's time for the first time in a while to turn our attentions back to Nigel Farage, who has described Donald Trump as the bravest man he has ever met. 49:32 I don't know that that's even comical anymore. The bravest man he has ever met. And he has described Vladimir Putin as the politician he admires most in the world. He tried in one of the leadership debates, I think at the last election, he tried to pretend that he hadn't said that. 49:50 But luckily, David Dimbleby was conducting that conversation, so he wasn't able to get away with his characteristic wriggling. And I think it's probably time for us to stop being so polite about this political party as well, isn't it? 50:05 I've been increasingly wondering. I'd love to know what you think about this. 50:09 How much damage do you think the phrase legitimate concerns has done to public discourse in this country? 50:15 You remember, for a very long time, you'd hear someone say something racist, and you'd say, that's a bit racist, and someone else would say, no, they've got legitimate concerns about immigration. And you'd sort of ask what their legitimate concerns were. 50:29 And they'd say something like, oh, well, in my part of town, if you're an immigrant, you get a free shop. 50:35 You'd say, pardon? What have we had on the show over the years? Free shops was the first one. I hadn't been doing this job very long. 50:42 And I remember thinking, I'm 99% sure you don't get given a free shop. 50:49 Simply my dint of having been born somewhere else. And this was even before Facebook ruled the world. So I don't know how these stories spread back in the day. And then I remember a woman telling me they got free cars. Did that call get clipped up? I think that might have been during the era of clipping up calls and going via. You get a free car. Is it legitimate concerns? We've got legitimate concerns. And I used to sit there thinking, well, maybe they do. 51:16 Maybe they do. So when the numbers start plummeting, everyone will relax again, aren't they? Whether you're talking about people forced to cross the Channel in small boats because the Tories shut all the safe and legal routes, or whether you're talking about net migration figures, which understandably and inevitably rocketed as a consequence of Brexit. 51:37 When they start plummeting, everyone will calm down, right? If you've got legitimate concerns, then when they are addressed... They will cease to be concerns if they were legitimate. There it is. That's the jigsaw. And of course, Keir Starmer's Labour government thought that they were or treated them as if they were legitimate concerns. I've got legitimate concerns. OK. All right. We're addressing your legitimate concerns. The numbers have plummeted. 52:05 Yeah, but I'm still really angry. There's still too many. I'm still really... Well, hang on. How legitimate were your concerns in the first place? Also, you keep saying you don't care about legal migration. You only care about illegal migration. Illegal migration is a drop in the ocean. Why is it the only thing you ever talk about? And why are your politicians coming out and saying there's too many black faces on the telly if they have legitimate concerns about current levels of migration? How can there be too many black faces on the telly if you're only expressing legitimate concerns? 52:37 I think it might be one of those phrases that we've allowed to be unchallenged in our discourse. 52:44 Because who honestly thinks that Nigel Farage has ever led a party that is not riddled with racism? 52:53 Go on, put your hands up. The only people who would argue that Nigel Farage has never or not led every party he's ever led is riddled with racism are racists who aren't ready to admit it yet. Racists who love him that aren't ready to admit it yet. You may be aware that ITV has undertaken... ITV has done some journalism. There you go. That's how you describe it. BBC used to do this sort of thing. That ITV has done some journalism where they have spent time with... reform councillors and reform candidates and talked to them and listened to them that that's that's the judge so i imagine richard tice is claiming already i think i may have seen a clip somewhere richard tice is claiming already that this is profoundly unfair how dare you listen to our candidates and report what they have said Okay, mate, that's an interesting take there you've got on a free media. 53:46 So ITV have been spending time with Reform UK candidates and councillors and a deputy mayor, for example, in Solihull, and they have been listening to them and recording them and telling you what they have said. I need to warn you in advance that although we have bleeped things and been very careful that you will there will still be profoundly offensive ideas conveyed. And some of the language that we are permitted to broadcast will be pretty offensive as well. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, that the programme will be broadcast on Sunday inside Reform UK. 54:23 And although 50% of me says this is up there with reporting that the popes are Catholic or bears shalalalala in the woods, Because of that phrase, legitimate concerns, because of the insistence from Farage for the best part of 20 years that, oh, we vet our candidates. And just because we didn't do a very good job of vetting them in the past doesn't mean that we're not going to vet them really well now. We've got the best vetting process. I've done more than anybody else to keep the far right out of British. And he's allowed to say these things. 54:54 it's extraordinary isn't it you see today is a day actually for recapping isn't it because how many people that told us donald trump was going to be fantastic or that everyone was exaggerating how awful donald trump was how How many of them are exactly the same people that allow Nigel Faris to claim that his parties are not riddled with racists or that his vetting system is somehow successful or that it's not his fault when it turns out that he attracts racists like moths to a flame? 55:26 How many are the same people? responsible for cheerleading Donald Trump, have also allowed that phrase legitimate concerns to pass into common parlance without actually asking people to define precisely what is legitimate about them. 55:43 Because too many people with brown faces on the streets of Birmingham for Robert Jenrick or too many black people in adverts on the telly for Sarah Pochin, those are not legitimate concerns, those are racisms. 55:56 They are racist observations, objectively racist. I don't like that because it's brown. I don't like her. I don't want to see him because they are not white. That's racist, right? It's got nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with racism. And how scared are people of saying that still? We haven't been scared, have we? We haven't fallen for this, have we? It's all a bit Catholic today's show, isn't it? With a big C. A bit of self-flagellation at the top, worrying that we've been sort of gaslit into not saying what we know to be true. 56:31 I don't think that's true. But who honestly... Tell me, this isn't the phone-in. Well, maybe it is, but it would be very odd if anybody rang in. Who here is surprised to discover that Nigel Farage's latest political party is absolutely riddled with racists? 56:47 Really? You're surprised? Oh, would you like to buy a bridge? 56:51 You can go and have a look at it. It's just down by the Tower of London. It's an amazing bridge. It opens up in the middle. It's yours for £2 million. I'll have it shipped to wherever it is you are by tea time tomorrow. Who here is actually surprised? 57:03 I've got A really interesting question forming in my mind about what's happening here. But I haven't actually got it on the tip of my tongue yet. It's something to do with misdirection or misinformation. Because when ITV broadcast this programme on Sunday, there is a presumption that we will be shocked. 57:27 And yet at the same time, the least shocking thing anybody in the British media could report is that Nigel Farage is leading a party absolutely riddled with racists. So something has gone horribly wrong here. 57:41 Whether it is a failure properly to scrutinise and challenge his ridiculous claims that he roots racism out of the party, or that his vetting process is anything other than an exercise in cashing checks and rubber stamping applications, or that he only ever acts when the situation becomes untenable. 58:02 What possible reason can there be for this sort of ship of bigotry still being afloat? 58:12 That's the bit I don't quite get. 58:14 Do you see what I mean? 58:17 What I really want to talk about is optimism. 58:22 hope and the idea that two things number one the very positive response to kemi badenock's rejection of suela braverman's racism that has seen her looking at the polling and the analysis of the polling i mean part of this so-called badenock boost is down to the media that brought you brexit boris johnson liz truss austerity and donald trump cheerleaders now telling you that kemi badenock's going to be brilliant i mean that is an extraordinary exercise in both self and public delusion. But one thing the public have genuinely responded to is her attack in her conference speech on Reform UK's racism. 59:00 And her boost in the polls probably has more to do with that, or at least as much to do with that as it does with the nonsense being spouted by right-wing media about her being some sort of cross between Boudicca and... 59:14 Margaret Thatcher. So that's good news, right? That means that right-wing voters are responding positively to a rejection of racism. 59:24 Now, I want you to be honest with me. I'm obviously a kind of enormous cliche. 59:31 Lefty liberal, metropolitan elite, champagne socialist, all of that malarkey. 59:37 I have been pleasantly surprised by that. 59:40 The numbers aren't enormous, but they're significant. 59:44 right-wing voters attracted to a rejection of racism. Now what is that the corollary of? That is the corollary of right-wing voters repelled by racism. It's the same thing in a way. 60:00 You're not going to be attracted to a rejection of racism unless you are repelled by real racism. 60:10 And that's why I want you to talk to me next. And I'm playing you some of the fruits of ITV's journalism with that warning that it's pretty grim stuff. Although, I'm afraid, entirely predictable. I don't think we get to sit here going, oh, some Reform UK politicians have said some absolutely hideous things about people of colour and Muslims and black children. Who can genuinely claim to be shocked? Who's going to sit here going... 60:36 I can't believe I voted for them. They're massive racists. 60:41 Colour me shocked. 60:43 Clips will be with you shortly. 60:45 But I think... You see, I'm a white bloke, you see. 60:51 You might shoot me down in flames for this. 60:54 Should we be a little bit more upbeat about this country's attitude to racist politicians? Have we allowed ourselves to be... overly... 61:06 Frightened? I'm not frightened of these people. I'm disgusted by them. Have we allowed ourselves to be overly disgusted? Is the presumed reaction and the ongoing reaction to this ITV investigation and the warm reception of Kami Bedanoff's rejection of racism, is it time perhaps to wonder whether we're a little bit better as a population than we've given ourselves credit for? 61:33 But I don't know if a white bloke can answer that question. 61:40 I don't think I can, can I? But you perhaps can if you're not white. 61:45 Do you ever think that actually things... I mean, we've got some hideous people in very prominent positions. And people like Suella Braverman will claim, as she did on Question Time the other day, that she can't be racist because she's brown. 61:59 Listen, I think this might be one of those invitations to you from me to tell me to give my head a wobble and get back on the disgusted bus. But just these two stories... suggest to me that maybe the racism is reaching a point where it's putting off more people than it's attracting. 62:21 That's probably going to be the phone in. 0345 60 60 973. It's 19 minutes after 11. 62:30 Be very careful with breaking news, chapter 347. I open the show by telling you how cautious I am these days of even things that appear to be officially reported because they may subsequently turn out not to be. Most obviously today, I suppose, the reports from MS Now in the States that Kash Patel was in Russia when he tweeted from Russia with love, but he wasn't. I've just received the message from someone who is a journalist. telling me that the new James Bond has been announced. But as far as I can tell, it hasn't. So it's a good job I haven't just shared that with you. 63:01 Now I get bombarded with messages saying that it has. Have a listen to some racists who are very big fans of Nigel Farage. I know that because they joined his political party. They applied to be candidates for his political party. And they, in many cases, got elected as representatives of his political party. And although reform being riddled with racists is right up there with the Pope being a Catholic and bears preferring sylvan idylls for their lavatorial habits, it still matters. 63:33 And we'll work out why shortly. Here is... 63:36 a man called Alan Feeney, who is the deputy mayor of Solihull and a councillor for reform. So when a house comes up for sale, white people need to be in there. 63:47 You almost need to out-Muslim the Muslims. You'd need a proper nuclear option, like literally drag them at their homes, stick them on planes and off to Pakistan, which you'll never do in a month of Sundays. 64:01 I'd be saying no more than 1% of British population can be non-white. 64:08 Crikey, that's bad news for Svella Baverman, Zia Youssef, Nadeem Zahawi, sundry other senior members of Nigel Farage's racist enterprise. There's someone called Dean Miller who was elected as a councillor for Bromley and was sent to Makerfield because he's obviously very highly thought of in the party that really carefully vets candidates for racism. He was sent to campaign in Makerfield during the recent by-election there that they lost. 64:34 We've been ethnically cleansed out of London. 64:38 Because you never usually get any, like, that's the only one over in Bromley. And now, you know, Bromley's, like, massive larger in communities there. No, just, like, it's, like, all the ethnic tits. Like, they're not black. You know, they're black. They're not an animal. Right. As long as I say it, I'm not racist. I mean, fuck. 65:02 Sorry to sniggle. I'm not racist, but it's crikey. And this character has resigned. Remember how many times I've said to you, where there is racism, there will be misogyny. The two go hand in hand because it is weak men desperate to impose some sort of control on others, others who are different from them. So it doesn't matter whether they are ethnically different or whether they are women. Just I am a man and I am inadequate and I am therefore desperate to enjoy dominion over either people of color or women, including if you follow the trad wife movements in the United States of America and elsewhere, including women in my own family. 65:44 I think you've probably come across a man like Councillor Chris Whelan in your life, but he may not have been quite as blatant as this. 65:54 If she was my daughter, it would still be bath nights on the Thursday. 66:02 Time for your bath. 66:05 I'll wash you properly this time. 66:06 Oh God, we're all going to end up to the papers. 66:12 I'm really sorry that I have to repeat this to you. 66:16 It's worth bearing in mind because I'm drawing parallels between racism and misogyny between Donald Trump and Nigel Farage. Donald Trump has talked about how he would have dated his own daughter in a slightly different universe. That man just said in public. 66:30 in reference to a female reform candidate, in reference to one of his colleagues, if she was my daughter, it would still be bath night on a Thursday. 66:39 He's now resigned on personal and health grounds. Of course he has. 66:44 And listen, I think it's time we stop pretending. 66:50 that this is a surprise or that this is a balanced conversation or that, no, it's perfectly possible to be attracted to this party even if you're not a racist. Should we just start being honest about this now? 67:02 And in order to avoid the misery of that conclusion, I'm asking you whether or not maybe, just maybe, The disgust that this will cause, coupled with the boost to Cammie Baden-Ock's fortunes that her rejection of racism entailed yesterday, means that people like me maybe need to start being a little bit more upbeat about tolerance in this country. I don't know. And I do know that as a white bloke, I don't get to make that decision. I just get to ask you that question. 67:32 Eli is in Rochester. What do you reckon? 67:35 Well, hi, James. 67:36 Our long-time listener... 67:38 First time caller to you, actually. Welcome. Yes. I think it's yes and no. Yes, in the sense that it's good to actually hear the leader of a major right-wing party actually addressing the fact that there is racist connotations and pushing back against that. 67:58 And no, because then we lose sight of the fact that it's my worth as a human being, or even belonging to the country, that is being discussed, you know? 68:11 And that should never be something that is okay, even if it's 10 people left that we're talking about, you know, like the inherent value that I have. 68:21 It's just... 68:22 But if someone is questioning that, then it is not only necessary, but it is welcomed that somebody else challenges it, even though, and this is why I made the observation a moment ago about my own ethnicity, because I would have missed this point. Even though it's going to make you very uncomfortable to be the subject of that conversation, you have to welcome the counterbalance to the bigotry. 68:45 Yes, absolutely. 68:46 I do welcome that. But the caveat is that pushing back because it's her children does not mean that she understands the connotation of what actually happens on the ground in everyday life. And the second part is that now as a black person, I have to start thinking when people look at me, you know, for more than two seconds, what are they thinking? Are they judging my, you know, what thoughts do they have towards me? When my kids interact with other kids, I have to start thinking, is it okay for my kids to go to their houses and things like that? 69:21 She would never experience that. And those things are not addressed. So she's only talking about it in the sense that, oh, they're English. But what about the day-to-day experiences for the everyday man? That's not being addressed. 69:35 You're absolutely right. So how do you respond when you hear a bloke with even less experience, well, considerably less experience of racist ideation? Than Kami Bader not although I think she denies that institutional racism exists and I fully acknowledge that it that it exists So, you know, it's a little bit more nuanced than you might expect. Forgive me Eli It's not it's not as black and white as it might be but when you hear me on the radio suggesting that maybe we need to Maybe maybe because here's what I think Reform and people who have sought to appease them have thrown open the door to racism. 70:15 They have allowed it to be publicly acceptable once again to be racist. You don't get fired for saying there's too many black people in Birmingham or there's too many black people on telly. That's hideous. I can only imagine how I would feel if that was me or more pertinently my children that people like Robert Jenrick and Sarah Pochan were describing or Suella Braverman was telling that they can't be English, that they're not English. 70:38 And I have spent, we perhaps have spent the last few years thinking, worrying, noticing how many people flock to that maypole, how many people are now dancing around that maypole. The... 70:53 The thing I'm flirting with today is the idea that there may not be quite as many people as we thought, and that when the racism that is endemic in any organization that Nigel Farage ever leads becomes absolutely crystal clear, as it is now, that some people drawn to that, this is where I'm going to sound either very naive or fatally optimistic, some of the people currently thinking they might vote for him, they will actually be put off. 71:24 James. 71:26 Be gentle with me, Eli. 71:27 Be gentle with me. I'll try. About 20 to 25% of the population supports reform. Yeah, but do they know how racist it is? 71:40 If they've heard of their policies... 71:44 And every single policy they have, there's a thread of discrimination running through it. 71:50 That's simply not true. Some of it is designed entirely to further enrich cryptocurrency billionaires based in foreign countries. 71:57 Apologies. 71:57 And they are based in foreign countries, Eli, so there's nothing racist about that. 72:03 That's very true. But if you think about that, right, that means about one in four to five people already subscribe to reform. And there's the other our starting parties that other people support. And then there's also the slice of the conservative that also have the discriminative outlook, the biases. 72:25 Then we're looking at about, I'm being generous here, 30%? 72:30 One in three people, James. 72:32 So you're not deriving any optimism whatsoever from both the boost to Kemi Badenoch's political fortunes by her rejection of reforms racism, but as you've reminded me, perhaps not all racism, or the expected revulsion at the revelations regarding Farage's racist army that will be in the ITV documentary on Sunday. That's what they should have called it, actually. 72:58 That is correct, yes. I am not. And because we... I think a lot of people take solace in the fact that we don't have lynchings and, you know, very... How can I put it? You know, the in-your-face racism and thinking, oh, we're not lynching people and we're not saying all black people, but they don't understand that these biases need to be spoken about. And I don't want it to be platform and that just be the only thing we speak about. 73:24 No, of course not. But... 73:26 It is endemic. 73:28 I will share a little story with you, actually. 73:31 I'm going to take the news and come back to you, if that's all right. Is that okay? Because I think you deserve to share your story. I've really enjoyed listening to you. You've also got a really lovely voice, actually. I hope you don't mind me saying that. I wish I had a voice like yours. I'd never be off the radio. Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. 73:47 I suppose no one can answer the question. It's a bit like asking whether or not your Brexit vote was influenced by Russian bots. No one's ever going to say, yes, actually, I think it might have been, James. No one's actually going to believe they fell for... Lots of people will still claim that they didn't fall for anybody's lies because there is a brilliant Brexit. It just hasn't been done yet. But are there any reform supporters who will be repelled by the revelations, which, I mean, are going to be very big on Sunday, but that certainly won't be the end of the story. I don't think. Does that count as a mystic Jim moment, Keith? 74:20 If I say these will not be the last racism scandals to emerge among reform candidates and councillors, I don't think that counts as mystic Jim. I mean, that's a little bit like predicting that the sun is going to come up tomorrow. But whether or not it's naive of me to think that there might be some people who are currently drawn to Nigel Farage's racist Maypole who won't actually want to dance around it when they realise how many racists there are in the troupe. 74:52 I don't know. Now that I've put it like that, I am sounding naive. And as Eli in Rochester was in the process of telling us, I'm sounding even more naive when I suggest that things might not be quite as bad as I've spent the last few years believing. Eli, you were about to tell us a story. Yes. 75:06 This is a little sad story, actually. So I have a daughter who started school two years ago. She's in year two now. And in reception, about six months in, she came back and told us, one of her colleagues told her, oh, your skin is dirty. 75:26 You know, in reception, James. 75:28 One of her classmates. 75:29 Classmates, yeah. 75:31 Yeah. 75:32 No, I can't, can I? Because I just have the little girl in front of me now, and I want to try and persuade her, not me or you, that that isn't necessarily as bad as it sounds. And it did used to happen because of ignorance, but it can't be happening because of ignorance today. 75:46 James, we lived 35 to 40 minutes from London. 75:52 What did you tell her, mate? 75:56 Sorry. 75:57 That's all right. 76:01 Yeah, it was hard, you know. 76:04 I didn't think I would ever be in that situation. Sorry. 76:09 That's okay. We can move on. 76:11 I just... Yeah, yeah. So it was just... I had to tell her that, you know, you're beautiful. You know, we love you. There are 30 other kids in your class. And 30 in the other class. And how do you get along with them? Oh, that was great. I was like, yeah. So... It's just one person's opinion. 76:32 And it was said aggressively, it wasn't said. 76:34 Yeah, like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn't, oh, it was meant to hurt. 76:39 Yeah, poor little thing. 76:41 And what made it worse is that my daughter loved the pants out of this girl. 76:45 Oh, I'm so sorry. And these are things that come from home and at home. These things are now being said with impunity and enthusiasm that was not there 10 years ago. Even if the thoughts were festering somewhere deep inside and in the privacy of your own home, you might say it. But what this reform investigation shows is that they think they can say it in company now. And if you're a reform politician, you just presume that you can say it to your colleagues, to your fellow campaigners, to other candidates, to canvassers, presumably to the boss, to everybody. 77:18 When you don't think there's anybody else around, we're all racist in reform. There you go. 77:24 And then that feeds into culture and that gets repeated enough and people automatically start having these connotations or these biases normalised. And then suddenly you ascribe anybody to, you know, anybody who looks brown or is not white to be in Afghanistan. And there you go. And just one last thing, because you have to move on. I could see this coming because I remembered in the early 2000s, there was a clamor about, oh, there have been too many black people in the country from Africa. 77:56 And the moment the Brexit vote started, and bringing this back to Brexit, and the target was Eastern Europeans, I turned around to my friend. I said, you know what's coming next, right? 78:08 Once we got out and the Eastern Europeans are gone, it's going to be black people. And once it's not the new Africans that cannot speak English, it's going to become the people who are already here. 78:20 People on the telly. 78:22 The people in the adverts. 78:24 The people in your children's school. The people over there. The footballers. The footballers. footballers the footballers can't be english you're you're absolutely right you're absolutely right i'm sorry that's a terrible business and you you handled it beautifully but you shouldn't have to thank you very much well you it's the least i can do in the circumstances 41 minutes after 11. um i haven't i haven't seen farage's response to the latest um outburst of epic racism in his party but i would just steer you back to the i want to do something actually and and i'm gonna i'm gonna do it i'm not gonna check with eli whether it's okay or not because you just heard a man talking about a daughter right you just heard a man talking about a daughter and if you're anything like me you would have been very moved by what you heard here is a member of the nigel farage fan club talking about a daughter 79:20 If she was my daughter, it would still be bath nights on the Thursday. Time for your bath. 79:29 I'll wash it properly this time. Oh God, we're all going to end up to the papers. 79:38 And I think it's important to remember that people like Robert Jenrick and Sarah Pochin and presumably Nigel Farage, but definitely Suella Braverman, bizarrely, they think that because that man there expressing paedophilic incestual fantasies about his daughter or about a putative daughter, because he's white, he is somehow a preferable neighbor or a preferable British citizen or a preferable person to Eli, who you just heard talking about. 80:09 Looking after his daughter. That's what happens when you let racism in the door. That's why these men love racism because it gets It allows them to pretend that they're not inadequate bigots It allows them to pretend that they're superior to somebody and if it's not people of color then it's women Ali is in Birmingham. Ali what made you pick up the phone? 80:31 Hi James I am actually in that video that ITV News put out. Okay. I'm the chap whose door he knocks on in the orange shirt. 80:44 And we had a good old chap, me and Anthony did. 80:49 And it was very polite. It was very cordial. 80:53 And to see and hear what he said after he left my doorstep was quite a shock. 81:00 Tell me a bit about the conversation that you had. 81:03 Well, it was a long conversation and I don't want to say too much because your producers have told me I've got to be very careful about what I say. 81:12 But the long and short of it is we discussed a lot of different topics. And in the community in general, there's a lot of accusations, should we say, that Alan Feeney targets Asian households. 81:27 with regards to planning permission and stuff like that. And that is what I put to him. 81:32 Oh, I see. 81:32 OK. And that is what was on tape. 81:35 So he displays discriminatory approaches in his work as a councillor and deputy mayor of Solihal. And you put that allegation to him. 81:44 Yes. OK. And, you know, he almost hadn't been convinced, James. I'm not going to lie to you. He was very personable. 81:52 And the scary thing is... 81:56 He knocked, well, he didn't knock on my door. 81:59 I called him over. 82:01 And we had this conversation, and the same person who, 10 minutes later, was saying, we want to drug them out of their houses. Well, let's have a little listen. 82:10 Let's have a little listen to what he said about people like you and your family shortly after you'd closed your front door. Before we listen to it, Ali, that is one bold shirt, mate. 82:23 Cheers, man. Let's have a listen. 82:26 So when a house comes up for sale, white people need to be in there. You almost need to out-Muslim the Muslims. You'd need a proper nuclear option, like literally drag them at their homes, stick them on planes and off to Pakistan, which you'll never do in a month of Sundays. 82:44 I'd be saying no more than 1% of British population can be non-white. Did he shake your hand? He did. 82:53 He absolutely did. And, you know, he came across as very likable, James. That's incredible, isn't it? And I hate to admit that. No, no, it's the point. 83:03 That's the point. That's the point. 83:04 Of course. The bizarre thing is, and this is one of the reasons why I hate what happens so much, is... 83:10 Me and my brother were texting the night before this came out. And I was saying, oh, well, you know what? Alan Feeney, he's actually all right with me? And my brother's like, no, he's not, he's a racist. And the thing that I hate most is now I have to admit that my brother's right. 83:22 You've got to go back to your brother and give him some kudos. Did you, I mean, from my point of view, and you're obviously following local politics, they're more closely than I am. But, I mean, did you not subscribe, I think your brother probably did, that reform is a racist enterprise? 83:41 Or were you persuadable that it isn't or wasn't? 83:44 No, I knew that they had severe racial elements to it. Sure. 83:48 But I am neither right wing or left wing. I am, you know, I'm somebody other than somebody other. Yeah, fair enough. And it was a case of let's see what he's about and let's see if he can account for what he has said online. Because that's the only interaction I've had with him. Yeah, I see. And again, he came across as very, you know, very good. 84:10 But, you know, you look at people like Stephen Lennon and they come across as it's quite clear that he is in it for the money. Yes. And, you know, the attention where someone like Alan Feeney is far, far, far more vicious and sinister because he is actually in a place of authority now. 84:33 Yes. 84:33 And he has these opinions and that is what is scary. 84:36 And do you have any confidence or optimism that when these sort of moments... Because I can tell you now what the defence will be. The defence will be, oh, well, they don't investigate anybody else or, oh, our vetting process is still a bit embryonic and it will get better. And I don't know why racists are attracted to me like moths to a flame or flies to a large pile of... Do you think when this stuff comes out, it will put people off? Yes. Absolutely not. No. Oh, man. No. Really? 85:05 I'll tell you why I say that. 85:06 Go on. I know you're right, by the way. 85:09 If it's something that I've realised is people like myself, I'm a second generation immigrant. Yeah. My parents come here. In my immediate family, there are doctors, there are, you know, we've got quite a successful family. 85:25 Sure. 85:26 And... 85:27 you know, I've realised is there is nothing that any minority in this country can do that will make us acceptable to racists. 85:37 Nothing, no matter no amount of integration, there's always going to be a sticking point. So, for example, they say, oh, you know, we all congregate in certain communities, or we move out, you know, to make our lives better, to better areas, like, oh, well, they're moving in. You know, we don't want them in there. There's never going to be a point where they turn around and say, OK, yeah, we accept you. 85:56 But things were better 10 years ago. 86:00 Yeah. 86:01 So they can get better again. 86:02 I think they're going to get worse before they get better, James. I really do. 86:08 And your previous call, I was talking about his daughter, and I want to make a very, very quick anecdote. Of course. He spoke about how his daughter had this incident and he didn't know how to handle it. 86:22 Me and my wife, we've got a five-year-old and a one-year-old, both girls. And my wife's a secondary school teacher. So my wife said to me one day, she goes, we need to sit down and we need to have a conversation with our daughter about racism. 86:36 And I was like, well, why does she need to know that? She goes, if we don't tell her that she's different or that she's a certain skin tone, somebody else is. 86:46 And that was a conversation that I had to have with a five-year-old. And I'm glad that we did because in her school, A situation arose where another little girl didn't want her to play because my daughter had picked a Moana doll, which was slightly darker skinned. And this child didn't want my daughter to play with her because of this darker skinned doll. 87:06 And I'm glad that we had that conversation. 87:08 She was ready, forewarned, forearmed. Mate, I've got a crack on. We'll talk again, I hope. Thank you for that. And hey, Ali, give my regards to your brother, yeah? I will do, my love. 87:20 It's 11.49. It's 11.53, so we need to squeeze Simon Marks, not literally, but metaphorically, into the remaining time because Mr. Howe waits for no man. I mean, it's happened, hasn't it? The final breach, the impossibility of pretending that Trump is anything other than an ally of the Kremlin. 87:36 Absolutely. It has happened. And it has happened just a matter of weeks, two months now, before President Trump welcomes Andy Burnham and the other leaders of the G20, possibly even also including President Vladimir Putin, who has been invited to the G20 Leaders Summit, not, as the Americans keep saying, in Miami. It's being held in Doral, Florida, which is where Donald Trump's personal golf course is located. And that is the venue for this G20 leader summit. 88:07 So huge questions now for our prime minister, for European leaders about how they are going to handle a situation that is poised to become a showdown. for the future of Ukraine, with Donald Trump absolutely now avowedly attaching himself to President Vladimir Putin, with Elon Musk suggesting that the US government has turned off, or at least reduced the speed of, the military-grade Starlink system that the Ukrainians are using to try and defend themselves against incoming Russian attack, suggestions by the Ukrainians that the United States has if not completely suspended, providing intelligence to them of incoming Russian attacks certainly has reduced the amount of intelligence that is being shared, which means that every single time there is a fatality in the Ukraine conflict now that is caused by Russia, there is every possibility that that fatality is partly related to an American government decision to slow support Russia for Volodymyr Zelensky. 89:15 Take a listen to what Donald Trump had to say at the White House three days ago when he was still touting that energy ceasefire, which appears to have been a complete Donald Trump concoction. And he was pressed by a Polish journalist about precisely how he was going to enforce it. 89:31 How are you going to make Putin abide by the ceasefire? I think what's happening is he wants to make a deal and we have to get Zelensky to want to make a deal. I think actually Putin wants to make a deal more than Zelensky. But, but, 89:46 You know, of course, Putin wants to make a deal that requires Volodymyr Zelensky to give away potentially 30 percent of his territory to the Russians. But it's also not just Putin that wants to make a deal. We also now know the Americans are increasingly keen to make a deal because during the conversations that were taking place between Russian officials and Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff in Miami a few days ago, It is now being reported that Wyckoff and Kushner proposed to unfreeze some Russian assets, put them into a special purpose financial vehicle that the United States government would then control. 90:28 Now, when you layer that on top of the decision to do the deal for diesel. with Vladimir Putin, a carve-out from a very extensive sanctions regime that the United States has imposed against Russia, congressionally mandated, it underscores the view that what Donald Trump is trying to do, even without a peace agreement for Ukraine, is get to a point where he turns Vladimir Putin into the blame figure, the figure who you attach blame to for soaring energy prices at home. 91:00 Zelensky. Sorry, Zelensky, by falsifying these claims. Don't mention Iran. You focus only on the attacks against Russian refineries by the Ukrainians. You then make Zelensky the figure of blame that you point at. When the Republicans lose control of the Senate and the House of Representatives, you say it's all Zelensky's fault. It's got nothing to do with me. It's got nothing to do with Iran. It's all his fault. And now we need to move to a situation where we just one way or another have to put the Ukraine conflict behind us, normalise the business relationship with Russia as massively as possible. 91:36 And all of this is going to be on the front burner at the G20 conversations that take place in Florida and at Donald Trump's golf club. We still don't know, by the way, what kind of guarantees the British government may have received, that no British taxpayer money is going to flow through that golf club into Donald Trump's personal coffers. It's a question continuing, still worth asking. 92:00 So you've done it again. It's got nothing to do with swaying votes in the midterms. It's preparation for defeat. 92:06 They're beyond that. 92:07 He knows. He knows. And Republicans on Capitol Hill know that the midterms are lost. So this is all about positioning for the day after. 92:17 Well, thank goodness he's got such a top-quality director of communications to steer us through these choppy waters. 92:22 Well, we knew a lot about Katie Zakaria before she had her catastrophic first White House press briefing earlier in the week. We knew that she's a dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist. We knew that she had... engaged in social media diatribes calling Democratic Party leaders paedophiles, calling members of the Hollywood elite paedophile cannibals. We knew that she had amplified all sorts of conspiracy theories and indeed even, it seems, sat on the board of an organisation that calls for the public execution of any American women who have abortions. 92:54 But we also thought we knew that she was a lawyer. 92:58 I mean, I am a lawyer and I'm a rigorous researcher and I spent the better part of 2020 and 2021 researching this. As a lawyer, the procedural steps are absolutely critical to ensure that they get this right. I love to be able to break that down. I'm a lawyer and these types of issues are so tangible. He wrote a book called The Real Anthony Fauci, which I read cover to cover and was able to make a case because that's what we do as lawyers for the reason why I would not take anything Fauci recommended. 93:29 Katie, you're the attorney. Is this legal? 93:32 Well, Gavin Newsom has not cared about what's legal. I'm a lawyer. I went to Pepperdine, Pepperdine Law. I practiced corporate law in Beijing, China. When I graduated from Pepperdine Law, I moved over to Beijing for three years and practiced law as a corporate lawyer. 93:48 You're a lawyer. Fill us in on Prop 50. 93:50 Well, it's definitely illegal and in violation of three sections of our state constitution. 93:55 Well, it turns out, thanks to the reporting of the Wall Street Journal, that while she did graduate from Pepperdine Law School, she sat the bar exam and failed it. In California. In California. 94:06 Very hard bar exam in California, to be fair. I mean, it is notoriously one of the hardest in the States. 94:10 Sure. She failed it. So no evidence to support the claim that she is a lawyer. A White House official hilariously said to the Wall Street Journal that Zakaria was not hired by the president to work on legal matters. And indeed, that's the case. But she was hired by the president to be his press secretary and presumably to be a credible figure who can mostly tell the truth to the press corps. 94:35 And she is either a liar or very, very forgetful. It's one or the other, neither of which are brilliant qualifications for being the president's director of communications. Lettuce cam time. Lettuce cam. Start the clock, Simon. I'm just thinking whether or not anybody in British politics could get a degree in something and then subsequently claim throughout the course of their political career that they were actually that thing. I don't know. Maybe, for example, if you got a degree in software engineering and then spent your entire political career claiming that you were an engineer, despite the fact that your major jobs appear to have been selling financial services at Kootz & Co and working for the Spectator magazine. 95:17 But I would not dream of mentioning any names, Kemi Badenoch. 95:23 This is LBC from Global. Leading Britain's conversation. Mystery Hour with James O'Brien. 95:31 It's four minutes after 12. It's Thursday. It's time for some light relief. And goodness knows we need it. Don't worry. Thank you, Keith. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you very much. 95:40 I can tell you now that because Simon Marks was in the studio for the last 10 minutes, the switchboard is almost empty, which means this is your best chance in a very long time to book a place on Mystery Hour, but only, of course, if you have a good question. 03456060973 is the number that you need to pose or to share whatever mystery it is that you are keen to see solved. 96:04 If you're new to this feature, perhaps a little word on how it works, I've kind of told you already, but it's a curious combination, isn't it, Keith, of serious and silly. Some of the questions that we discover answers to will stay with you for a very long time. Some will disappear like, I don't know, flower petals in an autumn breeze, or leaves, rather, in an autumn breeze. But what they all have in common is this. 96:31 I can't remember. They don't have anything in common. Some of them are silly, some of them are serious, some of them are daft, some of them are not. The point is that they are all mysteries. Who, why, what, where, when, whither, wherefore. You ring in with a question, someone else rings in with an answer. We used to have rules about repetition, but there's no chance. I can't even remember what we did in the first hour of the programme, let alone... 96:52 what happened on Mystery Hour 10 years ago. We used to have rules about people called Colin not being allowed to call in. I can't even remember why. But we also have rules about motoring. I nearly had a motoring question. Oh, I bought an electric car. That was it. I was going to do a phone-in on whether or not I should buy an electric car. Then I got a message off my wife who's in charge of such matters saying, we've bought an electric car. And I thought, well, I can't do a phone-in now about whether or not we should buy an electric car because we've already bought an electric car. That would be fake news. 97:17 So here we are. If you submit my favourite... 97:21 favourite contribution of the day, it can be a question, an answer, it could even be a steward's inquiry, although I don't think that's ever happened, then you can win a Mystery Hour game. There are two types of game. There is a board game and there is a travel game. They are completely different games. One is in a box, the board game, and one is in a tin, the travel game. You can find out more about both games at mysteryhour.co.uk where you can also buy them. 97:44 Or you can roll the dice and hope that you make my favourite contribution of the week and win one for free. 97:52 Terms and conditions apply, and you can find them at lbc.co.uk. I think that covers it. Can I start with a mystery? Just a little mystery. Nodding back to the conversation we had in the last hour, you know that I have had to wean myself off the history function on my inbox. So, you know, I'm not weaning myself off it completely. But here's a mystery. Does this bloke realise... How daft he is. OK, do not ring in to answer this question. So he sent me a message today saying, James, I really don't like you calling reform a racist party. 98:26 There are bad eggs in all parties, including the Greens now of all people. I'm a reform member and trust me, I am not racist. And why wouldn't I trust you? Well, I can't imagine why, but I thought I'd check. So I had a little bit of a look at your history and I found that back in September, you sent me this. I am now and always will be a reformed voter. And I do find it a bit offensive, James, that you say all reformed voters are racist and must be OK with racism. I have a black friend and he's all right. 98:59 Now, that may have been tongue-in-cheek, so I thought I'd possibly give you another chance. Here's another one from August. Thank God down here in Cornwall, we haven't got too many foreigners yet, but they are making their way down here in their droves. Luckily, I don't think that the Cornish people will tolerate too many of them. 99:20 I mean, it is a mystery. It's not one for this feature because this is fun and it's for nice people. 99:27 But how can you not think you're racist, mate? 99:31 I mean, that is a mystery for the ages, but keep them coming. Whatever you do, don't stop sending. I really want to see those fingers. Don't stop sending in the messages. It's 12.08. Should we get it off? Should we get going? Chris is in limb. Chris, question or answer? 99:44 Hi, James. Thanks for taking the call. I'm the first one, so it's a question. 99:50 Well, yeah, do you know what? You could have said, oh no, answer, because I actually have a question for you. 99:57 Go on. What's the origin of limb? 100:01 It's Roman, I think. Is it? It doesn't look very Roman. Did they have a Y in Latin? L-Y-M-M, is it? 100:09 L-Y-M-M, yeah. 100:10 Yeah, no limb in Cheshire, right? 100:12 Yeah, that's right. 100:13 I've no idea what the... I mean, it's an extraordinary word, isn't it? 100:17 Yeah, an odd one, yeah. 100:18 Anyway, you have a question. What is it? 100:22 Right. Do you do any DIY at home, James? 100:25 Oh, all the time. 100:26 right ask me boilers done the boiler you know i put up a little hook the other day to hang the dog lead on and uh it's already fallen off i'm i'm just brilliant okay okay um so when you're when you're doing a bit of woodwork and you want to sharpen your chisel yeah yeah you sharpen it on a stone a wet stone okay Every man should have one in his garage. And if you've not, you know... 100:56 There's nothing worse than a blunt chisel. 101:00 So you sharpen your chisel on a stone or you sharpen on maybe a grinder. And anything that's metal, a metal object, you sharpen it on a stone or a grinder or something like that. Yeah, you do. So why is it that a cutthroat razor, when you go to the barbers, Turkish barbers, have your nice shave... Yeah. He sharpens his cutthroat razor on a strop, like a leather strop. 101:26 That's another fascinating word, isn't it? Strop. Like limb, a strop, a leather strop. He sharpens the razor on the leather strop. And how does that work? 101:34 Yeah, what's going on? Someone will know. Somebody clever. Some clever physicist will know. That's not how it works. 101:41 That's not how it works, Chris. First of all, I have a half-baked attempt at answering it. Before we let any clever physicists... And also, you know, as a former builder, I know quite a lot about tools. 101:53 Okay. But I've never worked as a barber. Not yet. How can leather shop... I mean, it's obviously got something to do with how fine the blade is, hasn't it? Has it? 102:05 I honestly, I don't know if it's just taken a very fine, tiny burr off. 102:10 God, you've got a vocabulary to die for. A burr? Is it a burr? 102:15 You get the burr on the strop. The strop gets the burr in limb. 102:20 Oh, this is beautiful. This is like Chaucer. 102:25 But it could be. It's just the burr is so tiny that we don't know, do we? We've got no idea. 102:32 Basically, no. 102:33 What about your ears? What do they do with your ears in the barbers? Oh, they burn them. 102:38 Do they do that? Yeah, this is great, isn't it? 102:40 Can you go in and have just that done? 102:43 I don't. I've only ever had... Well, you wouldn't go because you've got a beard, haven't you? 102:47 Well, yeah, but I'm toying with the idea of having it trimmed to look a little bit sharper. I'm having some pictures taken next week. So they could do me like a fade and I'd get my ears done. 102:55 But that's why I never get my ears done because I do my own beard. I trim my own beard. 103:00 And I get my hair cut at quite a fancy place. My friend Tony isn't going to be putting matches in people's ears. There's a lady in the next chair having highlights. It's the last thing she wants to see if my ears catch fire. 103:11 You've got to be very, very careful with naked flames and things coming out of spray cans in ladies' hair, let me tell you, my friend. 103:18 Well, naked flames and blunt chisels, it's all going on today, Christopher. Thank you very much indeed. 103:25 How does that work then? How can you sharpen a razor on a bit of leather? 103:29 Kerry's in Halton. Kerry, question or answer? 103:32 Oh, my God. I can't believe I'm speaking to you. It's a question. 103:36 Well, you did ring in. It's not like I come and knocked on your door and surprised you, is it? 103:40 I think that you're such a hero of mine. 103:42 Oh, stop it, please. Honestly, carry on. Thank you. 103:46 My question is, as I explained to your lovely producer, I've been looking for a small, like, child's playhouse for my dogs. So when I'm mucking out the horses, they can get in out of the rain and they can have somewhere comfy. Oh, lovely. And I started looking at Wendy houses. I want to know why are Wendy houses called Wendy houses? 104:08 I like that question. I mean, it's not beyond possibility that we've had it before and we've all forgotten. 104:15 No, that doesn't matter. I've got a feeling, Kerry, and I could be wrong, but I've got a feeling that J.M. Barrie invented the name Wendy when he wrote Peter Pan. 104:29 So it may have something to do with Peter Pan. 104:34 But what I hear you say. But what I hear you say. 104:38 I don't know. Why is it called a Wendy house? 104:41 Because it was a house built for Wendy. 104:43 Yeah, but why Wendy? I mean, it could have been an anything house, couldn't it? Especially if Wendy is a relatively recent arrival on the list of names. Just makes me think there's probably a link. But why? Did Wendy have her own house? No, she didn't, did she? She lived in... 105:00 In London? She didn't even live in Neverland. Did they build her a house in Neverland? Did Peter build Wendy a little house in Neverland? 105:06 Imagine if someone's just tuned in expecting political analysis at this point. 105:12 Did Peter Pan build Wendy a house? I love it. Why Wendy? 105:16 And now I need to correct my notes because I've written your name down as Wendy and the question is why is it called a Kerry house? So why do you need a little house for your dogs again? 105:27 Because when I'm mucking out my horses, I just want somewhere comfy for them to go if the weather's not kind. 105:34 And it needs to be portable. 105:36 No, it doesn't need to be portable, no. 105:39 Build them a kennel or something like that, no? 105:40 A kennel, no. Oh, no, of course not. 105:43 Don't be ridiculous. We're going to get them a Wendy house. Silly old me. Of course you are. How many horses have you got? 105:50 Three. 105:50 Good Lord, what are they called? 105:52 So Molvic is my thoroughbred, and then I've got two tiny ponies, one's called Saffy and one's called Teddy. 105:58 Oh, that's lovely. And the ponies are to keep the thoroughbred company, are they, sort of? Or just they all have their own... There's a dog in the background as well saying, where's my Wendy house? And by thoroughbred, you mean you're quite a serious equestrian. 106:13 No, they're all retired, my horses. Oh, lovely. They just live a luxurious life. Oh, good for you. 106:20 I love that. Thank you, Kerry. Not Wendy. Why do we call a Wendy house a Wendy house and why do we sharpen razors on bits of leather? How does it even work? It doesn't make any sense. Everything else that we sharpen, we sharpen on stone or something very, very hard. It is 12.15. 106:36 Mystery Hour with James O'Brien. This is LBC. 106:40 It is 17 minutes after 12. Two lovely questions there, both of which are pure mystery hour, aren't they, Keith? They're classic mystery hour questions, which suggests to me that we might have had them before, but one of the great advantages of getting older is that I can't remember, which means we can do it all again as if it were new, as if it were fresh. It's like being in Groundhog Day, but only if you're not Bill Murray. No, that doesn't work either, does it? 107:06 17 after 12 is the time. Chiz is in Slough. Chiz, question or answer? Hi, James. It's a question. 107:13 It's not a motoring question, so it could be on this. It is a motoring question. It's not. At an intersection, why is there a button for us to press across the road if it has to change anyway for the cars to turn? 107:29 How is this not a motoring question, Chiz? 107:32 It's from the point of view of the pedestrian. 107:37 Because also... 107:39 It's literally a question about motoring. It's a question about traffic lights and people. And traffic, which consists entirely of motors. 107:48 But the question would still be valid if the cars weren't there. 107:52 Would you excuse me for a moment, Jude? 107:57 No, it is pretty strong logic, isn't it, actually? 108:00 Even if the cars weren't there, the pedestrian and the button still would be. Yeah, and the button clearly doesn't do anything. Are you sure, though? Yes. 108:13 But I would have thought this was quite obvious, wouldn't you? No. 108:19 The answer to the question is the button just makes us feel like we're doing something. 108:24 No. So it's on a sort of... That would be insane, Chiz. Come on, man. You just put a button. Imagine how much it costs to put flipping buttons up and down the country just so that you feel a bit better about standing there. Way to give you something to do. They might as well have put a game on it or one of those little kind of... 108:45 It's on a timer, but if you press the button, it will stop sooner. 108:53 I don't think so. Yes, of course it is. This has caused me a lot of... How much research have you done? Don't lie to me. 109:01 I've never Googled it because I've been trying to... No, I meant like real-life research, out there pressing buttons and you with a stopwatch and things. 109:08 Yeah, I cycle a lot. So the perfect example is the traffic light, the one that comes up to Night's Bridge. For that one, it always... 109:17 I never press the button, especially I cycle late at night, and it always turns green, even when there's no cars on the other side as well. So the button is clearly just theatre. 109:27 It's not just theatre. I mean, there's no... I hesitate slightly to pull out Occam's Razor, but it is phasing and timers that the button... 109:40 sort of loops, bypasses. So there would be, if you never ever press the button, it would still stop. But if you've pressed the button, then it will stop a bit sooner. 109:50 See, I've tried that. What do you mean you've tried that? But if you've pressed it, you wouldn't know when it would have stopped if you hadn't pressed it. 110:01 I've tried it, and it's always the same time. No, it's not. No, it's not. Don't gloss over that. 110:08 You haven't timed it, have you? 110:09 You have not timed it. I haven't timed it. I knew you hadn't timed it. But also, the night traffic light, by the time you get from the side of the mile, across through the little gate, and then you get to Hyde Park, that light turns green as well. 110:25 Do you know, I've actually noticed that when I was still riding line bikes before I fell off, smashed my head in. um all right there's no earthly way that you're right historically i have said on occasion to people that there's no earthly way that you're right and they have then to my great amusement oh sorry to my great embarrassment and keith's great amusement they have then turned out to be right but i'm i'm 90 there's no way that they are there for i love the word that you use there in fact today is turning into a veritable celebration of good vocabularies i love the idea that it's theater it's 110:59 We have to be kind to people who don't press the button. 111:01 I've always feel a lot of distress when I'm like, oh, do I press it because people are looking? 111:05 And then I have to press it just to partake in this theatre to make everyone else feel good. 111:09 Well, I admire your altruism and your community spirit, but I tell you what, if it doesn't serve any purpose at all, I will give you the money myself. LAUGHTER All right, cheers. You're on. So it will just be, it will just change the sequencing is my answer, but I'm not taking a round of applause because I'm even less qualified on that subject than I am on the sort of subjects where I do occasionally give myself a round of applause. Cheers. Ride carefully, please. It is 22 minutes after 12. Linda is in Normandy. Linda, question or answer? 111:38 Hello, James. I'm so pleased to be able to speak to you. It's an absolute pleasure. 111:42 I listen to you all the time. Merci beaucoup, Linda. Merci beaucoup. 111:46 Thank you. My question is, I don't have any sense of smell and haven't had for the last 50 years. I lost it when I was in my 20s and it's never come back. It was through an illness. It was irrelevant. I can't smell anything at all. My understanding is that we are attracted to each other as people through pheromones, which are sort of perceived up our nostrils or into our brain. 112:16 Because I don't have a sense of smell and I'm still attracted to people in any way, how does that work? How does that work? I've got no idea. 112:28 I mean, it's not just pheromones. 112:33 Isn't it? It can't be. 112:36 Well, no, I know. You fancy people on the telly. Yeah, of course. But, I mean, when we're attracted to someone deeply, like someone we would want to engage with and marry, for instance. Yeah. I mean, I met and married my ex-husband now. There you go. Am I proving my point? I don't know. 113:01 But you were very attracted to it. I think you're putting too much weight on the pheromones. 113:08 Am I? I mean, they do what you say. They do trigger a response in people, but I think they're just one of many other things as well. I think, you know, we respond to all sorts of stimuli, not just pheromones. I bet you have a type, don't you? 113:23 Tall, dark and handsome or whatever. So that's got nothing to do with pheromones. And then people who make you laugh, thank God, making women laugh can make men very attractive. Otherwise, I'd probably still be a virgin, Linda. I've got to be completely honest with you. So there's all sorts of other things that make people attractive. 113:42 I mean, it's really sort of basic. It's sort of Neanderthal, isn't it? Yeah, it is, yeah, and I like it. It's like... dogs sniffing each other's bottoms. 113:52 Yeah, don't ever do that. So let's put pheromones on the list. So we want someone to tell us how big a part they play. 113:59 Yes. 113:59 Don't we? Because I think it's not a mystery to me how you could still be attracted to people despite not being able to actually smell them. 114:07 I think we can... Yeah, but to want to actually physically engage with them. 114:11 You're not taking my invitation to step down from this one, are you? You really think that without... Yeah, okay, fair enough. 114:18 I'm not, because... I like lots of people, but I wouldn't want to necessarily physically engage with them. Well, most definitely wouldn't want to physically engage with them. 114:27 No, but you have wanted to physically engage with people for reasons that are not to do with pheromones. 114:34 Well, I don't know. That's my question. Maybe you don't smell them. 114:36 Maybe it's different from your sense of smell, in which case this question is actually getting more interesting by the minute, isn't it? Yes, and that's why I want an answer, please, James. Right, you're on. Thank you very much, Linda. Have a lovely day. 114:49 So there it is. Do you smell? If you lose your sense of smell, do you lose your ability to respond to pheromones? And or, because I've changed all the rules over the years, and we can do a little bit of side questions now, supplementaries, life's not straightforward, life's not binary, Keith. 115:05 And or, for me, not the place where the Ewoks live, and stroke or... 115:11 Is it... Do the pheromones deliver? How big a part of what constitutes attraction is delivered by the pheromones? Ronan is in Tollcross in Glasgow. Ronan, question or answer? 115:26 Question, please, James. Carry on. 115:29 Lovely to talk to you. 115:30 My question's a little bit morbid, but you know when a body... turns up somewhere and it can't be identified and they get the name Jane Doe or John Doe in the US. And I think it's like Joe Bloggs and Jane Bloggs over here. Why those names? Where do those names come from? 115:49 Oh, yeah, it's a good one. 115:52 We must have done this one before as well, mustn't we? 115:56 Why did they pick on John Doe? 115:59 Jane Doe probably. John probably came first and Jane came second. But what's the origin of John Doe? I don't think we use Joe Bloggs for a corpse. I don't think at the coroner's office or in the police lingo. I don't think you get Joe. I don't think Joe Bloggs. I think Joe Bloggs just means kind of... 116:17 uh uh you know chummo mate matey it's just a random name joe blogs and his why the man on the clapham omnibus is joe blogs but where does john doe come from i like that question i've got a feeling we'll get an answer to that one ronan but um i can't make any guarantees on mystery you know that i hope yeah cool cheers mate take it easy 27 minutes after 12 is the time uh david is in newcastle david question or answer Hi, James. Nice to speak to you. Likewise. What have you got? 116:47 Why is there an invalid Roman numeral on many, many watches and clocks in the UK? 116:55 What do you mean? 116:56 Well, 11111 is not a Roman numeral. It's 1V. No, it's 1V. You can have both. 117:04 You can have both, can't you? 117:06 No, it's not a real Roman numeral. 117:08 Is it not? Of course the Romans didn't use it. It would make an absolute mockery of long numbers, wouldn't it? 117:14 Yep. 117:14 It doesn't fit in with anything. 117:16 So you've got 1, 2, 3, and then IV. 1V. 117:21 And then IV. So it's got something to do with horology then, hasn't it? 117:27 Do you know? Personally, I thought it may be to do with stupidity. 117:32 Because the people who made the clocks were clever people back in the day and they thought that the peasants wouldn't get confused with the 1VV1. 117:41 That's still horology, though. That means the answer lies in watch and clock making, not in anything else. Well, it must do, mustn't it? Because you wouldn't see it. Yeah, you're probably right, actually. 117:53 I'm looking at a clock right now. 117:56 What time is it? 117:58 It's about... 118:00 That's 12. Really? I've got a possible other answer for you, John Doe. 118:06 No, you can't do that. 118:07 The D-O-E. You can't do that. 118:09 Dead on examination. 118:11 How many times do I have to tell you? You can't do that. You're not allowed to do that. Once more. Tell us once. All right, good. You can't do that. You can't come on and do that. So one, two, three, four... 118:22 Why on earth? No, you're right. Exactly that. But I bet you've answered it as well. It must just be because they were worried people wouldn't understand. Do you know the story about The Madness of George III? 118:34 Where of The Madness of George III? 118:36 I haven't seen the film. It's a good film. It's not called The Madness of George III, though, the film. Is it not? No. The play was called The Madness of George III. Was it one of Alan Bennett's? Was it Alan Bennett? But they couldn't call it The Madness of George III because all the Americans would think they'd missed the first two. 118:54 I could imagine that. I wouldn't want to watch it now, would I? Because they've got one going on themselves. 119:01 Well played, David. We'll get you an answer to your question, but I think you may have provided it yourself. So, Strop, Wendy House, Traffic Lights, Pheromones, John Doe, Roman numerals. Something for everybody. Here's Amelia Cox with the headlines. 119:16 This is LBC Mystery Hour with James O'Brien. Call 0345 6060 973. 119:25 It's top 34. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Questions that need answers. How come you can sharpen a razor on a piece of leather? Why are Wendy houses called Wendy houses? 119:36 Why do they have buttons on the traffic lights at intersections? Because the lights are going to go red anyway. What does the button do? 119:45 If you've lost your sense of spell, do pheromones still work on you? Why do we call or the Americans call dead bodies John Doe's? And I think I was right to question the parameters of David's question because someone's just sent me a picture from what appears to be the Coliseum. 120:00 in rome and there is a gate that has four eyes above it as in for one as in four in roman numerals i i'm pretty sure that i was actually drawing upon my classical education when i suggested to david that you can actually write the number four in latin as either iv as as we would say or i i i i in fact given that he was a geordie I should have gone with aye, aye, aye, aye. But I didn't. I missed that joke at the time. And there's nothing worse than esprit d'escalier. 120:32 Those are questions that all need answers. Jim's in witness. Jim, question or answer? 120:36 It's an answer, James. Come on, Jim. 120:38 Thanks for taking me call, James. 120:39 Nice to speak to you. Likewise. 120:41 My pleasure. It was the question over the cutthroat razor. Oh, yes. 120:47 I did appreciate some of the things that the guy was talking about from Lynn. The strop is used on a cutthroat razor just to give it a keener edge. But when the edge eventually goes, it'll still have to be sharpened on a stone. 121:03 Ah. 121:03 So he was probably right about little burrs. 121:07 He's exactly right on little birds, because if you have ever shiap in the chisel, you do use an oil stone to shiap in the chisel. Right. The stone is usually made of carbonundum, and you can get different grades of smoothness. 121:21 on a chisel for a different quality of work? 121:25 When you sharpening the chisel, the Yellowstone's usually double-sided. You have a rough side and a smooth side, so it just gives it a keener edge. But then you have to do take the, for example, if you were sharpening a chisel or a plain blade, you would turn it over on its flat side to take the burr off. 121:45 Okay. Okay. 121:47 Right. 121:47 So there's two stages of sharpening, really. 121:50 There can be, you know, depending on how keen the edge you want. Now, using a leather strop, you'd want a really keen edge. 122:00 Yes. 122:00 Because a face is not a piece of wood, so you need it to be even smoother than a chisel or a plane would ever be, really. 122:07 Yes. And of course, as you can appreciate, a chisel or a planar blade, we need shiapening more often because of the, you know, it's going against wood. 122:16 Perfect answer. What are your qualifications? Go on. 122:19 Sorry, I'm behind a bite red, so I'm used to shiapening chisels. But we did on occasion use cutthroat rages for cutting... 122:29 laminates or doing marquetry and things like that. Of course. And you do actually, you could even do it on your hand. 122:38 The old saying about horny-handed sons of child. Yeah, that's right. You could take the bird off with your hand. 122:45 With a bit of thick skin. 122:46 Yeah, so obviously with leather, it just keeps the blade keen. But eventually, it will need you happening on a stone, maybe a wet stone. 122:58 And that's why, actually, now you've come to mention it, I remember once when I was in the hairdressers, Actually, in one of those, I mean, I say hairdressers, it was a barber's that was very fancy. And the bloke was coming later that day to sharpen everything. So you do need to do that, even though they might be able to do the razors between jobs, as it were, on the leather. Every now and then they'll need to get the stones in to do it. Probably a beautiful answer. Is there a special plane, Jim? 123:27 Can you plane the bottom of a door without taking it off the hinges? 123:32 Yeah, the device that is made now, I mean, I've never used one before. I just took the door off. It's not as easy as you make it sound. 123:45 I know, but that's so exhausting. I was on my hands and knees. It is exhausting. I've got one of those mats in a hold, you know, like when your doormat is a bit below the level of the rest of your hold. Yes, yes, yes. So I take the mat out and I get the door over the hole and I'm sanding away underneath and I'm scuffing my knuckles and I'm getting tired. There must be a plane to do that job. 124:09 There is a device. 124:11 A device. 124:11 I wouldn't say it was a plan. You're looking down your nose at it. 124:14 You're looking down your nose at it, Jim. I can tell, aren't you? 124:16 James, get a joiner in. 124:17 Get a joiner in. I've already done that. I just didn't know whether... Because he came while I was out and I didn't know whether he used a device or whether he took the door off the hinges and then put it back on again. Because you can't do that on your own, can you? It's a big old front door, mine. You can't take it off the hinges and put it back on again without a bit of help. 124:35 Well, no. It might be a true man's job depending on the size of the door. Exactly that. 124:38 Jim, you're a star. Have a round of applause on me. Thanks very much, Jim. Top joinery banter there as well with me and Jim. Could have gone on all day. Reminds me of my days on the sites. 124:48 Ellen's in Edinburgh, site singular. Question or answer, Helen? 124:51 Oh, hi. 124:52 Right, it's a question. Carry on. 124:54 Okay, when is something, a piece of information, considered to be general knowledge? 125:00 Ah, yeah. I mean, it's a tricky one, this, I think, because I think Mastermind throws us a bit because you have a specialist subject. 125:10 But a lot of questions that are in your specialist subject in Mastermind could also pop up in general knowledge. So I think the only distinction really is that when you're doing a specialist subject round, everything has to be about that. But every specialist subject question could conceivably be, apart from the very esoteric ones, could conceivably be a general knowledge question. And even the very esoteric ones could be general knowledge questions if it was really hardcore quizzing. 125:38 Okay. 125:39 Well, you don't sound very enthusiastic. 125:41 I was just listening to a quiz on the radio the other day, and I just thought, how have the people that put these quizzes together, how do they decide that this question is widely enough known, the answer, that we can reasonably include this in a general knowledge quiz? 125:57 Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't think my answer quite reaches that, does it? It doesn't quite work. 126:01 No. 126:02 Okay. Oh, you're on then. Who decides whether it's general knowledge or not, as opposed to specialist knowledge? That's a shame, because I thought you were going to say, James, what are your qualifications? 126:12 Oh, I know that you've been on. We saw it. 126:15 Oh, all right. I wasn't just on it, Helen. 126:19 Oh, no, you won it. 126:20 Of course you did. I didn't just win it, Helen. Oh, you didn't just win it? I got one of the highest scores in celebrity mastermind history. I didn't know that. No. I think Sheila did as well, actually. We must compare notes. But it's ended now. They've axed it. So I will never go on it again. Normally, they get you back on if you won after four or five years. 126:38 Oh, right, OK. You're teaching me a lot. I didn't know that. 126:40 That's what Mystery Hour is all about, Helen, although on this occasion, no rounds of applause for either of us. Who decides, or how is it? If you're a quiz setter, and you need to be at a certain level, who decides what's general enough? I quite like that. I'll be surprised if we get an answer, though. Phyllis is in Ramsey in Cambridgeshire. Phyllis, question or answer? It's a question, Jane. Carry on, Phyllis. 127:02 I've been a fan and a listener recently, of yours for many many years i have a question yes and um it is why are blue bottles called bottles oh because they are a bit blue well no you see most of them are you see more green than blue ones these days i did once many years ago see a gold one shining in the sun i've never seen one since um must have been the angles i reckon Well, it was lovely. 127:34 And I wondered why they're called bottles. 127:37 Bottles? 127:39 Yes. No, I know. I'm just thinking in the hope of something popping into my head unexpectedly. 127:44 I've been wondering about this for... No, you can get bronze ones, actually. Yeah. I don't know. Why are they bottles? Is it Old English? A bottle, a bottle. 127:54 Well, it sounds like it could be a corruption of an old word. 127:57 But... 128:00 I've wondered it for not as long as I've been listening to you, but for a good many years. 128:05 Well, we must find out for you. That's very kind of you, Jane. Well, I shall do my best, Phyllis. I can't make any promises. But, yeah, a bottle doesn't make any sense in the context of a fly, really, does it? 128:15 Well, I don't think so. Anyway, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much, James. 128:20 Well, it's been lovely to talk to you. You don't meet many Phyllises these days, so it's been a particular pleasure to talk to you, Phyllis. 128:27 Thank you. It was my mother's name for me. 128:29 It's a lovely name. It's a lovely name, Phyllis. The comeback starts here. 128:34 A lot of the other names have come back, haven't they? You didn't, Mike, add an anti-lily. We never used to meet a lily. Ivy hasn't come back. That was my grandma's name. Phyllis is a lovely name. 128:43 I'd love to know Phyllis. I'm not keen on it. I do like to be called Phil. 128:48 Phil. All right, Phil. 128:49 May I call you Phil? You certainly can, James. 128:52 Well, thank you, Phil. 128:54 Thank you so much. 128:55 Thank you so much, and have a lovely day. And why do we call blue bottles bottles? 128:59 They can be blue, although, as Phil pointed out, not always, but why on earth do we call them bottles? I need some answers. Let's get another question on first, though. Leslie's in Glasgow. Leslie, question or answer? 129:10 Hi, James, there's a question. 129:12 Carry on, Leslie. 129:13 Can I just say quickly first, my mother-in-law's name was... 129:17 It's a nice name. 129:18 Just as an aside, it was actually Philomena. 129:20 Oh, okay. Crikey, who knew? There's so many different variations on the Philomena, Phyllis, Phil. 129:27 Yeah. 129:28 Love it. 129:29 Go on. So my question is, when you're absolutely bursting for the toilet, maybe you've been out all day, you haven't been to the toilet, and it's cold, or you get up first thing in the morning... You get to the toilet and your eyes start to water. 129:45 Why do your eyes start to water? 129:47 Do they? 129:49 Yeah. I'm just going to do that. Do yours? Do you recognise this? Mine do. No, not you. I know yours do. Obviously, otherwise you wouldn't have rung in and asked the question. I'm just checking with Keith. Do your eyes water when you're desperate? 130:00 Eleanor, do your eyes water when you're desperate for the room? 130:02 Do you mind me asking? This isn't an HR issue. No, not at all. 130:04 Not at all. Okay. 130:07 Really, really desperate, like... Yeah, really, yeah. Aren't you in pain, mate? I mean, it's not an overflow, is it? That would be biologically dangerous. 130:17 Well, I said one to that, but yeah, I don't think it diverts. 130:20 No, all right, you're on. I mean, your eyes water when you're in pain, don't they? So it may be just the pain of it. 130:25 Yeah. Well, no, even if it's not painful, and sometimes it's just as soon as you start to go... 130:34 Yeah, you're on. Yeah, you're right. It does. Okay, you're on. I mean, I don't know who's going to know the answer to that, but you never know your luck. Someone might. Thank you, Leslie. 03456060973. 130:45 Oh, that's good news. Great news, in fact. Ivy is already making a comeback. It's a lovely name. And Gren's 10-year-old is called Ivy, and she's not the only Ivy in her year. There you go. So just Phyllis now. We need to get Phyllis back on the popularity stakes. 131:02 Mystery Hour on LBC with James O'Brien. Call 0345 6060 973. 131:10 12.48 there. Missed another joke, of course, with the IV and the name and the Roman numerals. And well done to everybody who got that joke. And just before we go back to the switchboard, what do you think the thing was today that I said that prompted more response? So I spend a lot of my life working very hard to bring you really coruscating political analysis and world-leading polemics. And you respond to me Not so much on the phones, to be fair, but my inbox will go absolutely bonkers over the most ridiculous and trivial things. 131:48 What do you think I've done today that prompted the biggest response? 131:54 It's not a quiz, I'm going to tell you. I got my Ewoks a bit skewed with it. 132:01 So Ewoks are not from Andor, as I said, although that is a Star Wars franchise, isn't it? And a Star Wars Latin. And I don't even know if they're from Andor, because Andor is like a forest moon. So they are from... It is... Yeah, they are. They're from... Anyway, that's the thing that you all decided to email me about. Or rather, I don't really see my emails, but to text and WhatsApp me about in numbers that... dwarf anything else that's happened on the program today a tiny little mistake about the name of the home planet of Ewoks that's what you care about so tomorrow on the show at 10 o'clock we're going to open with what's your favorite planet in Star Wars and why and it has to be one that still exists it can't be one that Darth Vader blew up from the death no I'm joking Vanessa's in Battlefield Vanessa question or answer answer James carry on Vanessa it's about the Roman numerals oh yeah 132:56 Yes. So in and around the 14th century, the Roman numerals were actually updated. 133:06 Really? 133:07 So before that point, it was I was used from one to four. I, I, I, I, man. Yes. And then nine was the I, I, I, I. 133:21 And then around the 14th century, because of the rise in influence in Arabic language and alphabet and numerals, it was changed to IV and IX. 133:35 So both work then? So was it never ever IV in Roman times? 133:43 The original sundials, the original clocks all had I, I, I, I and the I, I, I, I. Ah, so I was actually right. 133:52 Yes. And David was actually wrong. 133:55 It was to do with an update in the language. It was competing with Arabic and Hindu. 134:02 And it just got too confusing, really, for punters to see all the eyes on the board. 134:08 Especially around the late Middle Ages, you had an influx in people learning to read. 134:15 Yes, of course. 134:17 so that's when everything started going downhill vanessa why they continue to be used is one it's it's a throwback to the original sundials and two it's a kind of stylistic choice because my um my uncle was a watchmaker and he always loved the original uh yeah aesthetics yeah it looks nice qualifications I do historical reenactments. 134:42 And you live in Battlefield? 134:44 Yes. Oh, do be quiet. 134:46 That's ridiculous. 134:48 It's a weird coincidence. But yeah, I live in Battlefield in Glasgow. And yeah, we do historical reenactments of Scotland. And then we go down to Wales for the big UK one. What era? 135:02 I do, in Scotland, we do 13th century and pre-13th century. And then when we go broader in the UK, it's 16th, 17th, 18th century. 135:12 So you don't do Culloden then? 135:15 No, I would love to do Culloden. 135:17 That's 18th century, I think. So what remind me of some battles from the 13th century? 135:24 It was the Battle of Independence, the original King Robert the Bruce. 135:29 Of course it was. Yeah, of course we're back in Scotland now. And what do you dress up as, if you don't mind me asking? What were the weapons of choice in the 13th century? 135:37 Children's mainly. But when we're doing, so Linethco is one of our biggest shows where you go to Linethco Castle and we dress up. We have a little medieval village for people to visit. 135:49 And we do calligraphy and games and everything else. So it's really, really cool. 135:54 What larks. I love it. Is there a name of the organisation that you do this with or not? 135:57 For us, I'm part of Saltire Society, but it's the Historic Environment Scotland. 136:03 Love it. I can see how much fun that must be. Have a round of applause on me. Thank you. No, thank you. Give my regards to Battlefield. James is in Milton Keynes. James, question or answer? 136:14 Answer. 136:15 Come on then. 136:16 Right. Thanks for taking my call. The answer is in relation to your traffic light conundrum, which is actually quite simple when you know. 136:22 Yeah, I thought so. 136:23 So traffic lights, they control red, amber, green. So northeast, southwest, easiest way to remember it. If you're traveling north to south, your lights are green, you go. The other ones are red. And when they turn red, you go north to south, you can carry on. If you want to cross, you have to press the button to override the sensors so that they know someone's waiting to cross. Because if you were crossing one side of the road when the east to south were driving towards you, they can turn left or right and could drive straight into your path while you're crossing the road. So what the button does is override all the sensors or the loops so that it holds everything on red in all directions so you can cross safely. 136:58 Even though it would stop anyway. 137:03 No, because one direction would stop, north to south would stop, but east to west would then be green and would carry on. 137:09 No, I know, I know. But it would stop at some point in the future anyway. 137:12 Yeah, but you would always have someone... I know, listen. 137:16 This was a stupid question, wasn't it? 137:20 Well, I don't want to call that person stupid. 137:23 It's only Chiz. You can call him stupid if you want. I liked Chiz, to be fair, but the question is absolutely shocking. 137:32 I mean, what are they for? He thought they were for theatre. And now I've got people messaging me saying, I think you'll find that the buttons in the lift that tell you the doors are going to close don't actually close the doors, which I know is not true. I think it might be true in the United States or something, but I was in a hotel on Saturday in Leeds and it definitely worked. I mean, I categorically know that it worked because I used it quite a lot. But anyway, qualifications? I'm a roads policing officer. There you go. So you were sort of thinking, is it worth ringing in on this? Because it's such a daft question, but then no one's answered it, so I may as well get in there and fill my boots. 138:03 Yeah, well, last thing I was, someone's cross the road thinking that they're safe and they get run over. 138:07 That's very true. Remind us, this is actually quite a serious subject, Chiz, for heaven's sake. Have a round of applause on me, James. Thank you, James. Thank you very much. 138:16 Jane is in Derby. Jane, question or answer? 138:18 It's an answer. 138:19 Carry on. 138:20 It's the one to the Wendy house. You were partly right. It is J.M. Barry and was named, obviously, after Wendy because when she arrived in Neverland, she was shot down, I believe, by a lost boy called Tootles. 138:33 I played Wendy in a play. So when she was shot down... 138:36 When you say in a play, you mean in Peter Pan? 138:39 In Peter Pan, yeah. Sorry, yeah. 138:41 It would be a bit weird if you played her in a different play. Well, I played many. Yeah, I know, but only one Wendy. 138:47 Yeah, only one Wendy. 138:47 There's only one Wendy, Wendy. Go on. 138:50 And while she was injured on the floor, she was singing a song, how she would like to be protected, and they built a house around her. In a tree? 139:00 No, on the floor. She was on the floor. 139:01 So they built Wendy a house? Yes. And it's called a Wendy house? 139:05 And it's called a Wendy house. 139:06 And Diane Barry invented the name Wendy? 139:09 Well, kind of, kind of, because I was a very nosy child, and my school teacher then, Mr Griffin, I asked, because he asked, while we did the play, has anybody got a Wendy house we can use as a prop? And I said, I do. So we used my Wendy house as a prop in the play. Oh, how lovely. And... And they said, I asked why is that? Oh, and I thought, oh, is that why it's called a Wendy house? And he told me the story of, you know, why it was called a Wendy house. And Wendy was, I think Jane Barry was called Wendy by a friend. I don't know. It used to be a derogatory term, as it is now. 139:40 You're right, Wendy. 139:42 Is it? I've never heard that before. I've seen all those. When I was on Twitter, I used to see all the derogatory terms in the world, Jane, on a daily basis. No one ever called me a Wendy. No. 139:51 Have you not? I'm from Coventry originally. It's very common there. Wendy? You're right, Wendy. Yeah. You're right, Wendy? Yeah, it means a bit of a wimp. 140:02 Does it? I think Wendy was invented by J.M. But anyway, none of that matters. Is it Mr. Griffin that is your qualifications for answering this question? 140:08 Mr. Griffin, yes. 140:09 I mean, it's not exactly the Chamber's English Dictionary, is it? But you can have a round of applause because it fits with what I thought was the case. I thought there might be a house in a tree, though. Paul says, this is Ray Liotta territory. Are you listening on catch-up, mate? She played Wendy in a play. She didn't write it. She's not J.M. Barrie's great-great-granddaughter, Wendy. Honestly. Steve's in Portsmouth. Steve, question all right. Make it snappy, mate. 140:33 I know, I've been told. It's your answer to pheromones. It's a bit longer one, but I'll try and shorten it as quickly as you could. 140:39 Well, you've wasted 10 seconds now. Go on with it. 140:42 Yeah, well, it was part of the research I did for my PhD into the chemical signal in between cells. 140:49 Right, yeah. 140:50 And people with anosmia, that's people without any sense of smell, still have attraction because human attraction is not driven by pheromones. 140:59 Oh. 141:00 We have a special organ in the nose called a vomorezo nasal organ. 141:05 And it doesn't really work. It doesn't work the same way like other mammals. 141:09 Oh, okay. 141:10 Most of our ways, we do it through visual auditory. 141:13 I kind of thought, so what do the pheromones do for us then? 141:17 Nothing, really. They really, mind that, there is no actual evidence that we've found that says that pheromones actually cause attraction in humans. 141:29 Well, there you go. Qualifications, you did your PhD, now have a round of applause. 141:34 Steve, before you go, what's it called, anosmia? 141:37 Anosmia. 141:38 Anosmia. How do people with anosmia smell? 141:44 Terrible. 141:45 Yay! And that's it for another day. I see. I've got trust in my listeners. Who gets it? Oh, I don't know. I find this so draining. Linda. Linda, the pheromones lady. She can have it. Because she was lovely. Oh, she was in Normandy. We can't say... 142:00 Oh, the battlefield lady. 142:02 Why do I always pick ladies? It's weird. 142:04 That's it for another day. And if you missed any of it, you can listen back on Catch Up on Global Player and in all the other places as well. There's lots of podcasts and, you know, and that and the other. And the app is free. Four o'clock, Tom Sawbrick. And now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. 142:20 This has been a Global Player original production.